It's not bad. They are ignorant people who lack any sensitivity.

[QUOTE=sera300;171681]It's not bad. They are ignorant people who lack any sensitivity.[/QUOTE]

Hear Hear!!!!
Do what is right for you and what you feel
Other people’s opinions must not mater
They just don’t understand (I don’t comprehend it because I am not that way inclined but then some people can’t understand why I jump out of a good airplanes for fun)

The only thing that makes it wrong is the ignorance of the world and the people that are scared to try new things. I believe some people are born with their homosexuality. Some just like variety in their life and there is nothing wrong with that. I suppose these people that quote the bible are perfect and never indulge in variety in anything in their lives, right? People need to learn to mind their own business, or if their going to worry, worry about something important.

For nearly fifty years the data have been accumulating indicating that male homosexuality is genetically determined. Similar data for women has been showing up more recently. The unquestioned homosexuals are almost definitely wired that way, meaning that it is completely natural behaviour. For those of us who are bi-, there seems to be some learned behaviour as well as some genetic predisposition.

More women than men "learn" and random incidents of same sex behaviour seem more common in womens' residences (at schools, for instance) than in mens'. Either way, it is difficult to justify gay-bashing except for a basis in religious teaching and cultural learning.

"-isms" have always been with us; always will be; hateful behaviour is hateful behaviour no matter what the basis and I, for one, reject much religious teaching based upon the grounding offered to those who wish to hate.

This may be off topic but my dad who is 95 now (bless his heart) has done a lot of reading in his years. He is also a retired school teacher and on some days, sharper mentally than me. He has told me many times that more wars have been fought over religion than for any other reason. Makes ya wonder.

[QUOTE=oberon;171680]Okay, I've done this topic before, but there have been a rash of comments in the news lately that make me want to ask it again. Comments such as Coulter's f***t remark about John Edwards, Tim Hardaway- a basketball player- who said in a radio interview, "I hate gay people" and most recently Marine Gen. Pace who said at a press conference, "Homosexuality is immoral". (I can, if necessary, provide links to these stories.)

What I have to ask is, what is so wrong with homosexuality? I've yet to receive a decent answer. Now, I'm not going to say you have to keep religion completely out of the discussion, but if you're going to use it, then I want more than... because the Great Moo said so.... Give me reasons why. For example, the Bible says that murder is wrong. However, I can make a case for murder being wrong without resorting to saying, "The Bible say so."

Anyone??[/QUOTE]

Maybe it's down to to how us humans are meant to be?
In tune with evolution, we're meant to spread our seed, to keep ourselves going. To keep our DNA, & the human race going.
Gay people cannot do this. If everyone were gay, the human race would end.
I personally have nothing against it. Im just philosophizing I guess.

Maybe it's just an inbuilt thing for people to think it's bad for the above mentioned reason? It might just really go that deep into our phyche.

[QUOTE=Sirene;171776]Maybe it's down to to how us humans are meant to be?
In tune with evolution, we're meant to spread our seed, to keep ourselves going. To keep our DNA, & the human race going.
Gay people cannot do this. If everyone were gay, the human race would end.
I personally have nothing against it. Im just philosophizing I guess.

Maybe it's just an inbuilt thing for people to think it's bad for the above mentioned reason? It might just really go that deep into our phyche.[/QUOTE]
Nah, it's just bigotry. It's the same reasoning as hating someone for race, religion, whatever is different. For the people that need to justify their generalized rage, it gives them a reason.

I don't think it goes any deeper than that.

I have little tolerance for people who cannot be open minded about other's who are different then themselves; furthermore, if someone does not agree with the way another is living their lives, so be it, but keep it to yourself at that point.

One prime example is my brother, we have had arguments to every extent about this. I hate his opinion about homosexuality and bisexuality; I have many times tried to get to the root of why he finds it so disturbing yet it has no bearing on his life. All I can get during an argument from him is similar to what Sirene points out as a potential scenario.

During our arguments/fights he states; it's against nature, it's not natural, humans are intended to reproduce, and the feelings can be suppressed. I nearly wish to disown him when he voices his opinions. Is he hateful towards gays? No, he just believes it's unnatural and some of his friends are gay. It's not based on a religious objection, it's not an opinion which is shared by anyone in my family, or by his friends. I can only surmise it's from him being narrow minded and ignorant. He also believes that men are not intended to be monogamous, it's against nature, since he believes it's inherent to spread the seed to reproduce, as if it's an innate right. He believes men choose to be monogamous but it's against nature.

I also believe when individuals enter religious convictions into the equation it's a guise to hide behind, rather then standing on their personal beliefs or having to form a belief. I am Christian and I am a Catholic; I denounce the Church's beliefs on many topics and this is one. If you are to be truly a Christian, it's accepting people for who they are and loving them just the same; therefore, I view this religious mentality as bigotry.

Why do I feel strongly homosexuality and bisexuality should be accepted? I have been married twice now. My first husband was bi; I found out after we were married. Why did we divorce? His emotional & physical attachment was stronger to his bf then it was to me and he admitted it always would be. If his family, friends, and co-workers accepted his lifestyle he would have been able to be open and honest rather then conceal it for fear of rejection. As upsetting as it was for me, it caused him anguish beyond belief and he was torn. We have remained friends over the years, the hardest part for me was watching him and his self destructive behavior; excessive drinking, indifference, and unsafe "hook-ups" to satisfy his sexual needs.

The statements made by the mentioned individuals in the original post, I can only attribute to ignorance, insensitivity, and emotional weakness. Obviously they have no empathy for people as human beings; therefore, I would love them to spend a few weeks at work with me. Let them view the emotional discourse which many suffer as a result of their "rejected" sexuality. Furthermore, they should get to see & know those who are plagued with illness from HIV. Many of these patients contracted the disease prior to much medical knowledge of the diseases existence. They should take care of the sweet and kind man who developed complications of HIV, thrush in his mouth, to such an extent his tongue was so infected it literally came off. When I called a surgeon to come in to repair it, all refused with the exception of one--one who was also gay. When you see and care for these patients day in and day out; they are no different then a heterosexual, merely their sexual orientation is different then mine. They are humans with hearts, perhaps those who have such an ignorant opinion should be aware of the reality, stop preaching from their soap boxes, and develop a heart.

I will never believe the argument about it being in man's nature to spread his seed for procreation (which I do believe is true for alpha males...myself included) being a basis for labeling homosexuality as "different". If anything, why not point to the data that brandye is mentioning as a potentially natural method of population control? Reproductive changes happen in species of animals all over the world as a way to control the numbers in any given herd or pack so as to not out number their access to food or cause them to be a better target for predators. Additionally, I believe a study in the UK a few years back determined that humans had shown changes in in the number of males vs females born during the Great Depression era in the US.

Another thought on this is that if we are to believe that men *should* be hard-wired to spread their seed, it would also be true that it is in every woman's nature to have sex with as many men as possible to ensure fertilization. If you want to get really animalistic about it, monogamy would be just as "against nature", in my opinion, as homosexuality.

I believe in Kinsey's sliding scale of sexuality and I also believe in not judging those things that do not effect you.

My earlier point is that homosexuality is "natural." As we find more and more basis for genetic coding of our sexual orientation, it is difficult to say it is "not natural." "Normal" is a sociological word describing what most people do; "natural" is a biological word simply meaning nature (evolution?) makes some one way and some another.

So, sirene, if we are so encoded, genetically, that is the way nature intended us to be. And sera has given a good example of how other members of society can destroy one whom they perceive to be wrong.

Chino,

You are almost correct. Men are driven to sex because throughout their lives (after puberty) spermatogenesis is ongoing. They are constantly manufacturing sperm and the semen to deliver it. The imperative to divest themselves of the excess shows up in wet dreams if no other way. They (you) distribute up to 400 million sperm in every ejaculation. This is insuring propogation.

Women, on the other hand, are born with a fixed number of eggs and they make no more. They mature, but no more are made. The genetic nature of women, then, is to be selective. In the last five years it has been discovered that even the egg, itself, in the fallopian tube is a bit selective and rejects many sperm before choosing the one it wants.

Men, then, are responsible for causing procreation and women for the quality control.

Just out of curiosity, if someone disagreed with the bi/homosexual lifestyle, and their reasons for disagreeing weren't religious based, would you still consider them ignorant and closeminded? In what situation, or for what reasons would you allow someone to disagree with that lifestyle without considering them ignorant or closeminded? Does such an opinion against the lifestyle exist in which it would be accepted and people to say "Okay, I accept/respect their opinion and thier decision not to like the lifestyle".

I feel I should chime in.....

First of all, I am in no way against any form of sexuality, but....from a certain point of view, isn't attacking a believed weakness considered natural.....often I see that humans label actions "good" or "evil", when in reality neither exist.

Is it evil when a predator feeds on a prey, or merely eating to live. Same goes for when one male lion attacks another, dueling for prime hunting grounds and mating rights.

So in a way violence is one of the more natural ways of life. As a sentient species we merely give the different forms a name...

For the record, I do not believe being gay is a weakness, but to others it may appear to be and thus giving them a "right" to act in a harmful way.

Thanks Brandye - Once again...further proof that women GET to have sex and men are ALLOWED to have sex... :)

Thresher_V...interesting point. I never would have thought I would find this type of discussion here, but in general, it is my belief that humans do not pay enough attention to animal instincts. We think too much. Complicate things too much. Ultimately, we assume that humans are totally free thinking beings that are in no way affected by thousands of years of genetics. I think it could be quite plausible that homosexuality is attacked simply as a way for individuals to place homosexuals beneath where they see themselves in the pecking order.

Starting to get a bit off topic, but I think that we as a species could evolve further by being more in tune with our animal instincts if only to understand our deep feelings and change our thought process rather than simply "conforming" to the thought of being open minded. For some people, especially here in the US, simply telling them they have to be open minded is like trying to put a band-aid on an axe wound.

Sorry to stray, I just never did like how people use their emotions to try and explain the world. I go with one basic philosophy, if it feels good do it, if it doesn't feel good, don't do it. Of course that's an over-generalized statement and it does have it's degrees....I do liek to workout although it does cause pain because I know it will eventually make me feel good when I heal.

Again, sorry to stray and I'll try to keep my opinions on the topics in the future.

By the way, I was suprised someone did agree with me, usually I'm verbally attacked----who knows, I still might be, lol.

[QUOTE=lookingforspice;171809]Just out of curiosity, if someone disagreed with the bi/homosexual lifestyle, and their reasons for disagreeing weren't religious based, would you still consider them ignorant and closeminded? In what situation, or for what reasons would you allow someone to disagree with that lifestyle without considering them ignorant or closeminded? Does such an opinion against the lifestyle exist in which it would be accepted and people to say "Okay, I accept/respect their opinion and thier decision not to like the lifestyle".[/QUOTE]You're putting the shoe on the wrong foot. How 'bout "I respect their opinion and their decision not to like people being Jewish". Is that ever okay?

So pretty much, anyone who ever disagrees with anyone else's choice of lifestyle is automatically wrong and close minded? I'm not trying to fan the fire here, I'm trying to understand. When is it okay to not like something? Is there even a line able to be drawn as to what is or should be considered acceptable? What about all of the other alternative lifestyles? Do we then all have to accept and like them to not be considered closeminded? Again, I am NOT trying to stir up trouble or anger anyone. I am trying to understand where everyone is coming from.

[QUOTE=lookingforspice;171817]So pretty much, anyone who ever disagrees with anyone else's choice of lifestyle is automatically wrong and close minded? I'm not trying to fan the fire here, I'm trying to understand. When is it okay to not like something? Is there even a line able to be drawn as to what is or should be considered acceptable? What about all of the other alternative lifestyles? Do we then all have to accept and like them to not be considered closeminded? Again, I am NOT trying to stir up trouble or anger anyone. I am trying to understand where everyone is coming from.[/QUOTE]Well, first let's separate out "lifestyles" from the rest of your statement. Someone is either gay or they're not. Someone can be annoyed by or find "gay culture" distasteful, that's their right (just as they might find any other culture the same way). But to present a point of view that says "I don't like you for what you are" be it black, Catholic, gay, whatever I think defines itself as always ignorant and closed minded.

Some people get around it by the "being gay is a choice" argument, but logically that holds no water when you debate it out.

And by the way, I think your line of questioning is thought provoking so it's not "fanning my flames" one bit. :)

People qoute the bible as a basis for why people should not be gay because that's what they were taught. They have no other legit reason for thier reasoning.Most people who say it's wrong to be gay, if you ask , have never met anyone who is gay and really have no real reason why they feel the way they do.(like why people dislike black people) People need a reason to feel better than everyone else.Most females have thier first sexual experience with another female.(a girl showed me how to kiss, mastrabate and gave me my first orgasm) so I don't understand why it seems so odd to people to be attracted to someone of the same sex. In roman and edo times this was the norm. All women were used for was to carry on the gene pool. To me alot of things came to be when the new world order started.(slavery, plymuth? rock) They came over with all of these rules for how "thier" country should be ran and the things they said were taught down through the ages.(I won't start on the bible). It's easy to say don't worry about it and do what makes you happy, but that's hard to do when you're ridiculed for being who you are. I think it's horrible that congress state that they keep church and state separate but qoute the bible when they say gay marriage is against the bible.I personnally do not know any one who is gay, I would love gay friends male or female and I support gay marriage. A gay couple is good enough to adopt kids and make a family but not legally? CONGRESS! They are suppossed to work for us but it's really dictating.(Sorry for the long post and misspellings you know I usually check my spelling but it's dinner time at my house)

Can one like the person, but still disagree with the lifestyle? I can't see "hating" someone for their lifestyle, but I can see still "disagreeing" with their lifestyle. I really get confused on this issue when other lifestyles are brought up. I have read stories of men with more than 1 wife. These men believed that they weren't meant to be confined to one woman. Does this then make this acceptable? This is what prompted my question about whether there is even a line to be drawn saying what is and isn't acceptable.

[QUOTE=lookingforspice;171824]Can one like the person, but still disagree with the lifestyle? I can't see "hating" someone for their lifestyle, but I can see still "disagreeing" with their lifestyle. I really get confused on this issue when other lifestyles are brought up. I have read stories of men with more than 1 wife. These men believed that they weren't meant to be confined to one woman. Does this then make this acceptable? This is what prompted my question about whether there is even a line to be drawn saying what is and isn't acceptable.[/QUOTE]

Sure , you can like a person and disagree with thier lifestyle. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. If it's not for you then it's not for you then you would disagree with it.Like I said it's all what you were taught.In the bible (I know, I didn't want to do it)There are a couple of places where men have had more than one wife.It's acceptable to them but not allowed by law.( at least not in america) This is a question that we will never know the answer to.( It's like what came first the chicken or the egg?)I think people think about what the other person is doing too much.

Chino:

I did not say spreading the seeds of procreation and homosexuality are one of the same. What I was stating is one persons beliefs are; both separate, mutually exclusive topics are linked to a personally defined "natural human behavior". I was not implying this person believed one was an argument for or against the other.

Looking:

Yes, someone can disagree for whatever reasons they wish; however, in my opinion it being "unnatural" as I cited in the earlier post with the example of my brother is being narrow minded; what is unnatural? Against nature? He cannot pose a firm substantive argument to form a foundation for his beliefs. The opinions which Oberon cite in the OP are hateful & derogatory statements which have no value other then to cause harm and hurt to other's; these statement [A. Coulter] I find close minded and ignorant. I believe in freedom of speech but how far is it allowed to go?

The major reasons I feel my brother is being narrow minded is his opinions [directly or indirectly] will reflect upon other's; such as his children. Furthermore, his in-laws are aware of his opinions. Given this, out of fear of rejection by her family his sister-in-law remains in the closet. Her denial to the family has manifested it's self in many destructive ways...depression, eating disorders, and anxiety attacks. For fear of reprisal she suppresses her feelings.

To not accept a lifestyle is fine...it's the way it's done; with tolerance and respect for other's. I don't hear many of the homosexuals bashing heterosexuals or rejecting us based upon our sexuality.

[QUOTE=oberon;171867]Au contraire, Sirene. Gay people CAN do this. If by some weird event everyone on the planet were to suddenly turn gay, the species would still go on. Just because I might not particularly enjoy the activity doesn't mean I can't do it. The equipment all works just fine. There is ample evidence for this in the fact that many gay people have through the years had heterosexual marriages and produced children.

[/QUOTE]

But being gay, would the population want to? No...
I know they CAN do it, but they wouldn't want to do it.

Yes gay people have had hetero marriages etc, but if everyone were gay I dont think it would happen. If being gay is widely accepted then no one would feel the need to get married & have kids like the norm, would they?
Thats another issue altogether thoguh I guess.

It's not really fair to say someone's "ignorant" because they believe homosexuality is wrong. Everyone has different beliefs and morals, and that's just the way it is.

About the the military sergeant or whoever said it, I saw that on the news. He apologized for saying it, but not for believing it, and that's how it should be. Just because he's in a position of power doesn't mean he should deny his morals - I'm glad that he found a way to apologize without backing down from his beliefs. Everyone entitled to believe what they want, and they don't have to prove or validate their beliefs to anyone but themselves. I agree that it's wrong to hate someone for being homosexual, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with their lifestyle. As long as you're happy with the way you're living, who cares who thinks it's immoral.

[quote=Beans518;171823]People qoute the bible as a basis for why people should not be gay because that's what they were taught. They have no other legit reason for thier reasoning.Most people who say it's wrong to be gay, if you ask , have never met anyone who is gay and really have no real reason why they feel the way they do.[/quote]

I agree w/you Beans; this mentality which you state baffles me. It's one matter to be taught something is morally or ethically wrong but at what point do people begin to think on their own and question the basis of their beliefs and the teachings?

Religion & government are institutions who set guidelines and policies as boundries to live by. However, just because the alleged "Elites" dictate practice; when does it become an individual's responsibility to examine personal views on the matter? Or is it sheer laziness; it's easier to follow what I have been taught then to examine my personal opinions?

Looking at the entire matter some religious beliefs state pre-marital sex is a sin yet many individuals do what they think is right regardless of their religion. Why do they not apply the same attitude towards homosexual relationships?

[QUOTE=canoodle06;172025]About the the military sergeant or whoever said it, I saw that on the news. He apologized for saying it, but not for believing it, and that's how it should be. Just because he's in a position of power doesn't mean he should deny his morals - I'm glad that he found a way to apologize without backing down from his beliefs. Everyone entitled to believe what they want, and they don't have to prove or validate their beliefs to anyone but themselves. I agree that it's wrong to hate someone for being homosexual, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with their lifestyle. As long as you're happy with the way you're living, who cares who thinks it's immoral.[/QUOTE]I agree with you for the most part, but being in the position of power and responsibility that he is it was a callous and insensitive thing to do; I'm sure it made all gays serving in the military feel just great . . . . talk about "not supporting the troops". It also showed a serious lack of good judgement, which, considering how many critical issues he's crucial to is alarming.

....................

Can:

I believe the point is when these public figures voice their bigotry in a public/media forum, not their personal beliefs. It perpetuates despising other's, and since many of these public figures are looked up to by their viewers it teaches hatred or disdain is okay for someone who is different then you. I'd love to hear the "Military man" denounce women/blacks or Christians and see what happens.

If someone has a valid reason, a substantive point, as why they believe homosexuality is wrong, that's different. Personal opinions are just that, they are personal based on personal values and core beliefs. Many people cannot form a basis for their argument, it's simply "because". If someone believes it's morally wrong and has a valid argument it's different but many just go with the "norm" (everyone else said it was). To me, personally, having no true reason or logic why it's wrong and never examining your personal beliefs is ignorant. If a person looked at it objectively and has an opinion that it's wrong, then it's a different story, too many just want to pontificate. My point of view only.

[QUOTE=sera300;172027]I agree w/you Beans; this mentality which you state baffles me. It's one matter to be taught something is morally or ethically wrong but at what point do people begin to think on their own and question the basis of their beliefs and the teachings?

Religion & government are institutions who set guidelines and policies as boundries to live by. However, just because the alleged "Elites" dictate practice; when does it become an individual's responsibility to examine personal views on the matter? Or is it sheer laziness; it's easier to follow what I have been taught then to examine my personal opinions?

Looking at the entire matter some religious beliefs state pre-marital sex is a sin yet many individuals do what they think is right regardless of their religion. Why do they not apply the same attitude towards homosexual relationships?[/QUOTE]
I think that pre-marital sex is accepted because it's still considered the"norm". I mean because of hetero sex.

[quote=Beans518;172085]I think that pre-marital sex is accepted because it's still considered the"norm". I mean because of hetero sex.[/quote]

But this is what I cannot understand how can these people differentiate which sins are okay and which are not. If they stand so firm on religious convictions both are considered sins. Unless they rather be selective?

.................

.....................

[QUOTE=canoodle06;172091]EVERYTHING has two sides to it --- homosexuality, incest, beastiality, polygamy, and whatever other topic you want to come up with --- there really is no right or wrong - just your own individual perception. In all honesty, I do believe that homosexuality is a sin, but it's not my place to judge someone for what they do or to call them ignorant because their beliefs differ from mine. Am I ignorant for believing it's immoral? NO --- I acknowledge that a lot of my own actions are "immoral," too, and who am I to say one "sin" is worse than the next?

I'm really sorry if I offend anyone, because that is not my intentions at all, and if I do please tell me so that I can either attempt to explain myself or apologize. I just felt compelled to post because I was offended by some of the posts saying that anyone who believes that homosexuality is immoral is ignorant, because I've done everything I can to NOT be that person who others see as ignorant.[/QUOTE]That's simply not true in at least two of your examples. Bestiality and (particularly) incest are acts of sexual victimization where another living creature is harmed by the behavior. The victim has (in most cases) been coerced into participating. I think they can be objectively proven to be "immoral" in the same way rape or assault can be. They are most certainly not in the same category as two people of the same orientation engaging in a emotional and physical relationship by mutual consent. For god's sake, I've been with my partner for thirteen years, and outside of the fact we're two men there is NOTHING different about the way we fit into our environment or society around us. How is this immoral? Are you basing it purely on religious beliefs? Fine if you are, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But even intimating that it's somehow no more "right or wrong" than bestiality or incest IS offensive, sorry. Polygamy I'll give you could be argued in the context you suggest, although nobody is born a polygamist. It's behavior you choose to engage in. And before we go down the well worn road one more time, being gay is NOT a choice. You can CHOOSE not to act on your orientation and be non-sexual, but it's absurd to expect someone to do so anymore than you'd expect a heterosexual not to engage in sexual relations.

[QUOTE=DVDBear;172112]That's simply not true in at least two of your examples. Bestiality and (particularly) incest are acts of sexual victimization where another living creature is harmed by the behavior. The victim has (in most cases) been coerced into participating. I think they can be objectively proven to be "immoral" in the same way rape or assault can be. They are most certainly not in the same category as two people of the same orientation engaging in a emotional and physical relationship by mutual consent. For god's sake, I've been with my partner for thirteen years, and outside of the fact we're two men there is NOTHING different about the way we fit into our environment or society around us. How is this immoral? Are you basing it purely on religious beliefs? Fine if you are, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But even intimating that it's somehow no more "right or wrong" than bestiality or incest IS offensive, sorry. Polygamy I'll give you could be argued in the context you suggest, although nobody is born a polygamist. It's behavior you choose to engage in. And before we go down the well worn road one more time, being gay is NOT a choice. You can CHOOSE not to act on your orientation and be non-sexual, but it's absurd to expect someone to do so anymore than you'd expect a heterosexual not to engage in sexual relations.[/QUOTE Amen brother Amen!

...........................

Unfortunately, as the saying goes 99 out of 100 will read the Christian and judge the religion based upon what they see rather than read the bible and see what the religion is all about. Christians like everyone else are flawed. Perfection is an impossibility. The best that can be done is try your best to be what you believe. The more I have thought about the issue (and I will admit that I am a Christian (to the best of my ability)) I personally believe that the gay lifestyle is against what my religion teaches. HOWEVER, I do not believe that I am therefore entitled to deny what someone else believes. There are many beliefs and while I don't agree with them, I don't think it is my place to deny them their choices. There are of course circumstances in which I would have to stand against them, and that would be only if a gay/bi/lesbian were attempting to hold a position in a church. I am NOT saying that a gay/bi/lesbian can't be a Christian, what I am saying is that I don't believe a practicing gay/bi/lesbian should be in a leadership position in a church. I am also NOT saying that being gay is any worse than anything else that I do on a regular basis. For instance, I am not always truthful with loved ones, I gossip about people at times, I am envious of what others have. So already I have broken a couple of the sacred rules of my religion. Do not bear false witness against your neighbor, Do not covet anything that is your neighbors. I admit that I have stolen in my youth. There is yet another sin committed. And add to that the day to day sins. As I said, perfection is an impossibility and it is truly too bad that 99 out of 100 will read the Christian and see all the flaws and be discouraged with what they see to be a religion of hate and bigotry. I strive to stand firm in my beliefs while trying to respect that I am only a small part of the world and many others do not share those beliefs. I hope I didn't offend anyone, that was not my intent.

I don't think that's fair either.To judge a religion. I don't see why people can't act like adults and agree to disagree. If you strongly believe something and you hold fast to it then good for you, But at the same time everyone is a human being and why do some things only pertain to a choosen few. I.E. I don't understand why gay people can adopt a child as a couple but can't get married. I don't see why if their significant other goes into the hospital they are not able to speak or act on behalf of the other person.They are expected to be upstanding citizens and play the part but yet can't get the same treatment and respect as a citizen. It's a double standard. It's not right and it's not fair.If you don't condone the lifestyle that's fine but shouldn't gay people be treated like people and not even have the term "gay" be used. See people for who they are and not who they "DO". ( with the exception being any kind of forceable sex and children because that's just wrong) Love is Love regardless of who's doing the loving.And no, you should hold fast to your beliefs, you don't have to join in; I don't think gay people are out riding around in a van abducting people saying we need more gays get in! All they want is their fair and equal treatment and it's about time they get it. Why don't they deserve to be happy too! I don't like fat people in bikinis but no one is stopping them. Keep your beliefs, but let people be who they are!

[QUOTE=canoodle06;172126]I'm sorry...now that I think about it those were bad comparisons to make, and I'm sorry that it offended you, but I was in a rush and couldn't really think of anything else. I'm not really arguing that homosexuality is immoral (even if that is what I believe) --- I'm arguing that it's unfair to call someone ignorant because that's what they believe.

Oh and DVD --- you asked if my reasons were purely religious, and I don't really have an answer for you. I was raised in a VERY religious household, and as I get older it's hard to decipher what came from that, and what I've decided for myself. I don't want to fall on the whole "it's unnatural" argument because I'm not sure I feel that way............I really wish I had a better answer for you, but I'm really bad at explaining things. Sorry![/QUOTE]Apology accepted, Canoodle. But back to your main point which is the unfairness of calling someone ignorant because of their beliefs -

If your belief is that someone's behavior is wrong I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to articulate WHY. You're "entitled" to that opinion even if you can't, of course. But I don't think it's unfair to labelled "ignorant" or "bigoted" if you can't put forward some justification. You would illicit that response if you expressed a similar judgement with any other segment of society - "I think blacks are inferior" or "I think being Jewish is immoral". Not too many people are going to leap to the defense of anyone who said those two statements and when asked why responded "It's just what I believe." Telling someone their behavior is immoral is an attack on their charecter and doesn't garner a free pass.

...................

[QUOTE=canoodle06;172139]lookingforspice:

THANK YOU! That's kind of what I'm trying to say, and I think you do a good job of it.

DVDBear:

Isn't the Bible and religious beliefs enough justification? I don't question what I believe to be God-breathed because I don't question God...He says it's immoral, so that's what I believe. I don't know if it's what you intend and I doubt that what you're trying to do, but it's offensive to call me ignorant because of religious convictions. Would you call someone ignorant for believing in God?[/QUOTE]

I suggest you take control of your own life, make up your mind from your own experiences, not from a book.
"God" says a lot of stupid things in the bible, if we all followed what is written the world would be a very supressed, depressing place.

"Isn't the Bible and religious beliefs enough justification?"

No... it isn't. It is however, an outdated book written too long ago for the authors to imagine what it's like in todays world
Do a favour for yourself & the world, stop believing everything you read.

[QUOTE=canoodle06;172139]DVDBear:

Isn't the Bible and religious beliefs enough justification? I don't question what I believe to be God-breathed because I don't question God...He says it's immoral, so that's what I believe. I don't know if it's what you intend and I doubt that what you're trying to do, but it's offensive to call me ignorant because of religious convictions. Would you call someone ignorant for believing in God?[/QUOTE]Canoodle - I didn't attack you for your religious beliefs. In fact I specifically asked you if that was what your were basing your conclusion on and you said you didn't know. But would I call someone ignorant for believing in God? Of course not . . . I believe in a higher power. But if someone were using their belief to attack me as in "My God says you are immoral just because of what you are!" Then yes, I'm well within my rights to respond, because that's their belief system and that's where it needs to stay . . . . with them. I don't see how anyone can have a reasoned debate on anything if the trump card for one side is "God says so." It's an absolute from their point of view and closes off any further exchange of ideas. I don't belittle you or anyone for their beliefs, I also don't accept them as proof of a value judgement they've made about a significant part of the human condition (which happens to include me). Isn't this whole thing really "Judge not lest ye be judged"? Who's doing the judging first in this situation?

[QUOTE=Beans518;172136]I don't think that's fair either.To judge a religion. I don't see why people can't act like adults and agree to disagree. If you strongly believe something and you hold fast to it then good for you, But at the same time everyone is a human being and why do some things only pertain to a choosen few. I.E. I don't understand why gay people can adopt a child as a couple but can't get married. I don't see why if their significant other goes into the hospital they are not able to speak or act on behalf of the other person.They are expected to be upstanding citizens and play the part but yet can't get the same treatment and respect as a citizen. It's a double standard. It's not right and it's not fair.If you don't condone the lifestyle that's fine but shouldn't gay people be treated like people and not even have the term "gay" be used. See people for who they are and not who they "DO". ( with the exception being any kind of forceable sex and children because that's just wrong) Love is Love regardless of who's doing the loving.And no, you should hold fast to your beliefs, you don't have to join in; I don't think gay people are out riding around in a van abducting people saying we need more gays get in! All they want is their fair and equal treatment and it's about time they get it. Why don't they deserve to be happy too! I don't like fat people in bikinis but no one is stopping them. Keep your beliefs, but let people be who they are![/QUOTE]Great post, Beans. Pretty much sums it up.

DVD Bear:

You are right, we aren't supposed to judge others. Like the saying goes "Let those without sin throw the first stone" Believe me, there would be no stone throwing. I hope that you did not take anything that I said as an attack on you.

Sirene:

I was somewhat disturbed by your post. You said:

"I suggest you take control of your own life, make up your mind from your own experiences, not from a book.
"God" says a lot of stupid things in the bible, if we all followed what is written the world would be a very supressed, depressing place.

"Isn't the Bible and religious beliefs enough justification?"

No... it isn't. It is however, an outdated book written too long ago for the authors to imagine what it's like in todays world
Do a favour for yourself & the world, stop believing everything you read."

In my life experience, this IS the choice I have made. I resent that you are now implying that because of my choice to believe in God and attempt to the best of my abilities to live a Christian life that I am not thinking for myself. I have a brain, this is what I CHOOSE to believe. I am not sure though that I understand what you mean by the world being supressed and depressing if everyone believed in the teaching of the bible. Do I believe that a person should wait until marriage to have sex? Yes, I do. I did, and so did my husband. I am personally glad for that as I have never had to wonder if I measured up to past partners. Sure we were extremely inexperienced, but part of the fun has been learning and growing together. Within the marriage I believe there are no sexual limitations as long as both are comfortable. Notice I said within the marriage, I do not include involving a third person. The basics of the Christian religion are very good (in my opinion). Don't steal, kill, commit adultery, spread lies about others...etc. Those do not sound suppressing or depressing to me. Please understand I am not trying to attack, I am trying to understand your point of view and at the same time explain where I am coming from. It is not my intention to bash/attack/anger anyone.

[QUOTE=lookingforspice;172178]DVD Bear:

You are right, we aren't supposed to judge others. Like the saying goes "Let those without sin throw the first stone" Believe me, there would be no stone throwing. I hope that you did not take anything that I said as an attack on you.
[/QUOTE]Looking;
No, I haven't. You've basically followed the perameters I've been writing about, namely, if your heartfelt belief, religious based or otherwise is that homosexuality is "a sin" or wrong for any other reason, that is certainly your right. As Beans mentioned there are plenty of things in this world I find wrong but I also accept people have a right to be who they are and do what they want to do (within fairness and the law). If it's not encroaching or curtailing my ability to co-exist and have the same freedoms and rights as other people have then it's honestly none of my business. I never expect to live to see the day everyone is "okay" with homosexuality. I'd love to see a time when people are not obsessed with spreading misinformation or expending a ton of energy, time and money attempting to continue denying us the same basic rights others have.

[QUOTE=oberon;172312]

I, too, am a Christian. I'm also gay. Luckily, being gay didn't destroy my Christian beliefs. Even luckier, being Christian didn't destroy ME.

[/QUOTE]

Typical. Have you not read the bible? Your god, that you worship is against your sexuality. It is considered a sin. According to the bible you're going to hell...
Does that not tell you something? You've picked the wrong religion!!!

So is not using the right sacraficial animal to make a sacrafice to god, but no one does that any more. Eh, what ya gonna do? Every one sins but depending what religion you follow if you do the correct things upon dying everyone gets into heaven. Like having last rights performed for you, or like being baptised.So supposedly everyone gets into heaven if you ask for forgiveness. All Gods are suppose to be forgiving and merciful. Also in all(?)religions he is supposed to love you more than you could ever know, so wouldn't he forgive being gay. I mean there are worst things.(being gay is not bad)God also wants his children to be happy.Only god can decide who gets to go where(if you believe in that) So why do people take up so much time worring about what's going on in the next persons life? If we took as much energy solving important issues like hunger, poverty, child predators,disease and other things like that imagine where we would be.Also I think that if the world "turned?" gay, we as the human race would evolve with the times and same sex reproduction would be possible. If not I'm sure everyones clock would start ticking (men have one too) And eventually someone would make that sacrafice and have hetero sex and pop out a kid.