"Today's survey, which was conducted by Opinion Matters and used the internet to assess the views of 1,012 Londoners aged 18 to 25, found only 69 per cent of men would NOT attempt to have sex if the other person did NOT want to. Similarly, only 77 per cent of men — compared with 92 per cent of women —agreed that it was rape if one person said no and the other went ahead regardless."
([url=http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23898453-boris-johnson-my... Shock over young who cross the line from consent to rape | News)
We are talking nearly 1 in 4 men who apparently do not understand the definition of rape. This is alarming!
Also in Holland there has been research about youngsters crossing the lines and those falling victim to it. Perhaps even more astonishing; victims (mostly female) try to shrug of the experience telling themselves it's "normal". Therefor redefining sex as something in which force is part of the act. Iow: back to the medieval days...
A campaign has been launched, called: "Make sex nice and clear".
Goal is to :
-make youngsters aware of the fact that NO means NO!
-encourage them to stand up for themselves and make that NO heard!
-if their NO is disregarded and their (sex)partner forces the act; that the partner is in fact committing a crime!
I think it's shocking to read such research. So I'd like to send out this message to everyone reading this forum:
[SIZE="4"]NO means NO!
RAPE is NOT a JOKE![/SIZE]
i know, but the point i was making is about the inference of the study, if 31% of males in the survey thing that it is ok to force sex on a girl after she has explicitly said no (which as far as i can tell from both the post and the link, may or may not have been the case) that is an alarming number. but if it is something like a kiss then that's a different matter, I'm not saying it's right all I'm saying is that's not rape. also back to what i had in the parenthesis. the article or post didn't state if it was made clear to them men that a "no" was stated. which could bring some men who push the line a bit but wouldn't rape a girl.
and finally, i agree no means no, not try in a few minutes or try something different. but all I'm saying is that before we start to think that 31% of men will rape a girl we should scrutinize the study and what was asked.
All I have to say is that I always helped my women friends get through these incidents, they never want to go through with procedures of any kind, they have trouble saying no and the wannabe men are just insistent, they always end up getting used raped beaten etc. I have stooped caring now because after over 20 thousand dollars of lawyers and therapy, they want to stay in there little city with high crime rate, she can go anywhere I have money im willing to spend to get her out of there, but staying there will and is the end of her, she is a good person and she did tough a really long run, but she must get out of there trouble always ends up her way, and I have decided that I will distance myself from her if she does not wake up properly, I have been robbed and beaten for helping her with her problems, but now I have my own women for a year now, I finally found her after endless searching, I will not let this kind off man near her, she is radiant and smiles beautifully like the sunshine, my friends all lost there smiles, I am scared of what I would become, I have seen a glimpse of it in myself, each time I looked at my friend I though it, no more smile, now with this small example, you can see how these behaviors cascade through and affect ppl like me that have worked hard with good intentions and are succesfull and powerfull, now if something makes me loose it, when would it stop, the government isnt helping at all, how can it be that a women dressing sexy is considered lesser in many peoples mind? When we go out me and my gf and my friend, even at the resterant, people always stop us to tell us how special and really good looking we look, and of all group and ages, and they ask us questions because were really unique and I always do my best to be friendly since I know I am naturally mean looking for some reason, now some guys I have heard on the subject, saying, "they shoudln't dress like whores" whores=sexy or the likes now? Another stupid comment by sexuallyfrustrated men that cant even keep there dick or ignorent thoughts in there pants, this society needs a wake up call, were all becoming shallow and cant see past our own pitiful boundaries. I will not continue this fight for these women (and men to?O.o) anyways, just the though of what these men did, makes me loose it again, this hurth her entire familly, and it keeps progressing to the ppl getting involved.
Weasel - ANY ATTEMPT - got it?
Once the lady has said said NO, the possiblitiy of sex is gone.
She does not have to justify her decision. She does not have to explain herself to you.
NO means NO
Campaigns similar to what you describe for the Netherlands have been used elsewhere, sometimes by governments and sometimes by schools and, even, citizens' groups. The big problem is that it is a constantly changing audience. "Date rape," discussed elsewhere here on a few occasions is disproportionately a problem among the younger folks. They have a habit of aging out of the target audience and it is like starting all over again with a younger cohort. In other words, this is a never ending struggle. The partial solution, of course, is to begin the education at even younger ages. That, however, upsets the religious lobbies who hold that this would simply be advertising sex to younger and younger people.
Given how progressive Holland is (excepting your current ultra-conservative bunch more or less in power), it is surprising that such a program, or programs at local level, is not already in place. You have surprised me twice now on the Dutch not being as progressive as I had been led to believe or, perhaps, I am misreading and this is simply a UK initiative. If so, expect fits and starts and going in circles. You still have an enviable record on teen pregnancy from the perspective of most developed nations.
Your very clear message should be read and understood by everyone on this Board. Too bad that we cannot get a signed pledge from everyone participating here! Thanks
My suspicion is the Dutch program is a spin-off of what was launched in the UK (called: where is your line?). And the campaign is mainly there to reinforce this no-means-no-attitude via more ways than the allready available sexeducation (apparently this is enough to prevent teenpregnancy amap, but not enough when it comes to this attitude?)
O yes, and about those in "power"; I for one certainly didn't vote for that to happen! Though you must know that the ultra-conservative part (more like ultra-discriminating :() is not officially part of the government. They support the leading parties, cause they wouldn't have majority otherwise. But they are not in "the lead". Another strange concept of the Dutch, just like our beautiful "gedogen" (which this government sadly try to abolish btw, fyi: "gedogen" means something like: officially illegal, but tolerated by law-inforcement by governmental decission).
Part of the problem is feminine reticence. Now me, I let him CLEARLY know whether it is "game on" or "get out" keeping in mind that I must use words of one syllable and be prepared to back my word up.
Men are too often raised with the idea that women do not know what they want and that a woman likes to play coy so if he applies a bit of pressure he'll get what he wants and he KNOWS that what he wants is what she really wants.
Guys, if she says NO, it means back yourself up, get dressed and get out.
It does NOT mean 'try harder'.
what does the study mean by attempt. does a little kiss on the neck hoping to turn a partner on count, because then the study doesn't seem so bad. which is part of the question where is your line.
"A quarter of women said that they had remained silent and allowed sex to happen, despite not wanting it". - from the article. We've all done it, and it sucks (well, maybe not EEK). I think the point is that men shouldn't be hoping that she won't say no, they should all be hoping that women say YES. Believe it or not, women do want sex. We're not just acquiescing because you bought dinner, drinks, and then asked real nice. Sometimes, we are just horny and think you're hot. Wouldn't men rather have sex with a willing, active parter, than with someone who is too tired, embarrassed, confused, or drunk to say no?
(Aside: I personally have no issue with drunk sex, so long as it is with someone you first had sex with sober)
"Wouldn't men rather have sex with a willing, active parter, than with someone who is too tired, embarrassed, confused, or drunk to say no?"
Let's skip the "rather" and turn it around:
I can't imagine how anyone would get off on a partner that lies there waiting for it to be over.
"A quarter of women said that they had remained silent and allowed sex to happen, despite not wanting it".
We've all done it? Perhaps... And probably men do too. I think there's a difference between being too scared to speak up or letting it happen to please a partner. Though all wrong, since sex is about pleasure and joy for both. That the partner would feel pleased, I can't imagine. My bf has tried to fake excitement for me, just so that he could offer me sex as he knew I had been craving and longing for him for weeks and months. But really; it sucks! If I don't see that sparkle in his eyes, it's better to have no sex at all.
Rape means you're violating another human being. I can't imagine how people can hurt like that, get off on it and still live with themselves!
I have been 'raped'in my sleep by my husband.I woke up and told him no i'm too tired,but he kept on.I didn't have the strength to push him off me,so i just lay there angry and confused.Not long after i fell pregnant with my youngest child.No means no whether you are on a first date or in a long term relationship.No woman or man in some instances deserves to be violated against their will.
"well, maybe not EEK" - exactly.
Because sex with me is like him smearing his body with beef drippings and walking into the tigress's cage.
EvilEvilKitten had it right. No means no. Period. And the woman does not have to explain herself to anyone for any reason.
Men not listening to women is a real problem all over the world. This problem is reinforced especially through Hollywood media/movies. When a man refuses to listen to a woman -- he is trying to control her. It is that simple.
No means just what it says, no. And that's it.
The End.
Reference: "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin deBecker
deBecker has a most excellent discussion on this phenomena in his book. A must-read for all.
I totally agree!!!
that's really shocking to see those numbers. and who are the 8 percent of women that think sex without two consenting people is not rape.
in relation to this topic i read that a woman created a anti rape device for women in Africa. the device is inserted into a woman's vagina and when a scumbag inserts its penis the device clamps and pinches the penis without breaking the skin so no risk of transmitting HIV. then the device can only be removed by a medical professional who will report and have the rapist taken into custody.
To add what I just heard on 60 minutes news while reporting on a girl raped at a college in Stockton CA. They said that according to study funded by the justice department 95% of victims of sexual abuse on campus do not report it. Something has to change about that. What would work?
Teaching women the truth about sex instead of filling their minds with fairytales and BS would certainly help.
The device from what I have read have quiet a bit of controversy. A woman got mad at her bf and put one in. Of course it had to be removed and he was arrested for rape since what woman would do that to her bf. She then came forward about it.
And if I'm not mistaken there were actual little barbs on the device that's why it couldn't be removed.
And as far as rape how does hollywood reinforce men raping women? Rape has been portrayed as rape in every movie I have ever seen.
The women who don't believe rape is rape generally have been raped. Case in point, my partner was raped at 12. She had several orgasms and therefore didn't report it because she came. (She is sensitive and gets off from penetration)
Rape remains rape. The moment she said no, he should have respected it. The man who did this violated her, even if she did orgasm from it. It actually makes it even more so confusing. Just like victims that report dreaming about their rapes and find themselves waking up wet. Crying over that this must be a sign they liked it. Contributing even more so to a conflicting image of sex and oneself. I'm not saying she has. I'm just saying these things do usually impact on a person quite heavily.
I think movies actually usually make rape into something less than it is. There are few movies that depict rapescenes in a way that sort of resembles reality. These films are usually extremely violent and called perverse. They even get censored in which all the other extreme violence may exist, but the rape is made less. The first version I saw of "the accused" the rapescene was cut out but a few frames. So you mainly saw her flirting and dancing around, few shots of her being held down and raped, her running away crying. It didn't matter much to me, I could still see how the main character felt awful. Whereas my friend sitting next to me said: "tsssk, what a dramaqueen!". Now that's what you get from censure; a total lack of understanding.
I don't know many films that glorify rape... One I could think of would be Emmanuelle; the first widespread erotic film in 1974. It's quite controversial. On one hand; women stood up cheering in the cinema's when Emmanuelle is depicted having sex on top. It was considered revolutionary and feminist! The first movie that depicted anything else but a woman lying passively underneath her man! On the other hand; Emmanuelle gets used as a price in a boxing game; the winner gets to bend her over and screw her. And she gets raped by a group while her lover watches, as part of her "sexual education". I can't view this any other way than wrong. A lot of young women went to see that movie. Some experts do wonder that if these women took the on-top-positioning as an example, than would they also have copied this twisted view on rape?
A part of my years in college was moviescience. And studies are conflicting on to what extend people are influenced movies. So far there seems to be no proof on violent behavior. Yet people do seem to gather knowledge from entertainment. If you ask people if you could die through suffocation of the skin from being covert in gold paint, it's surprising the majority answers "yes". They directly copied knowledge from 007 Gold Finger. Usually only remember that's where they got the idea from, when you directly present them with it. Now that's scary...
That gold question doesn't surprise me...society is mostly made up of idiots...its like the group of kids who try to debate war with me and while I cite legitimate sources, they go off to tell me that they are right because they played Call of Duty. I laughed and told them they were morons. They thought that there are promotions for getting enough kills and that you can call in kill streak rewards and that you can get better weapons as you rank up.
I wanted to reach over and strangle them after they started talking bad on the USMC because in the "video games" the Army is the ones who pushed through while the Marines were pinned down so they suck..
LOL, that's typical! :) How old were these kids? It is known that children do take some time to differentiate between fiction and reality. It's why kids fear monsters under their beds. It's also why children are highly receptive to influence and more easily accept wrong information. It seems like they view this videogame as representative for the real world. This surprises me; in the research I was referring to people didn't say "because 007 says so". They usually felt somewhat stupid when confronted with it ;) According to PEGI these games are rated 16/18 depending on which one... I know teens are still quite receptive. But so close to adulthood -in fact: able to sign up to the army!- I'd expect them to know this is "just a game" or at least someone to have told them... And if these kids were much younger, that's certainly a shame they were playing it :(
well if no one tells them anything about a subject who actually knows something then they can believe whatever. for example the guy that thinks a woman's nipples are connected to her clit. as for the getting better weapons because of great combat skills well that is just plain stupid. it should be common sense that the military will a solider in specific weapons.
as far as influence from movies and video games it varies from person to person and age. i remember as a little kid i was so afraid of the toilet eating my pee pee because of the movie look who's talking too. now i just laughed really hard at the clip. as i got older games and movies didn't really affect me like all the adults said they would because i always kept myself educated and did research to see if what i saw or heard was true. definitely RR people have more knowledge of what generally happens now during a crime scene investigation because all of the CSI and Law and Order shows.
True, but I sure would have hoped someone had told them.... And I know I am peculiar but when aged 16/18, I was at it to get to the truth when I heard something. And it may be part of my personality, but if someone told me to be incorrect, I'd be checking my resources and come back to that person, either admitting I was wrong, or proving I was right.
CSI was created with the goal of the majority information being accurate. A series such as House even emphasizes deceases such as Lupus to actually raise awareness of it. I'm certainly not saying that tv/movies/gaming is bad, I think it can be very educational! You just need to be able to sort the good from the bad :)
I saw the same stats of this survey on a program on the BBC in the UK.
I can't remember the program.
Its alarming to say the least, but I cant believe that some of these guys can understand this concept. Rule of thumb - if theres no clear answer , stay away.
The thing that shocks me is the stats intertwined with the influence in alcohol.
I hate stereotyping but guys can be idiots (and I'm a guy).
Sorry but anything to do with rape honestly annoys me, especially when its guys that force themselves upon people.
Men should wait until the women give clear and direct signals - like ripping open his shirt but I think she shouldn't have to head butt him.
[url=http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Tyler-Perry-Speaks-Out-About-Being-Molest... Perry's speaks about being molested and the aftermath - Oprah.com
This is an episode of October last year, but I've only just seen it and I thought it was very striking. I wouldn't know where to find the entire episode, but it must be out there somewhere. I only found the above resume with a few short clips.
The man has been through so much it's heartbreaking. What I found specifically inspiring would be that he explains in what ways the abuse left him sexually confused. He speaks of triggers. Things that continue to influence your behavior, even though you don't understand where they come from. How he came to understand himself better throughout his life, specifically learning from being in relationships.
Tyler: "I think that everyone who's been abused, there is a string to the puppet master, and they're holding you hostage to your behaviors and what you do. At some point, you have to be responsible for them. What I started to do is untie the strings and chase them down to where they came from. And I was able to free myself and understand that even though these things happened to me, it was not me."
And he speaks about it may feel like your body betrays you. This reminded me of how we talked in this thread about people experiencing orgasms/physical excitement during their rape, therefor not calling it rape. Whereas it may lead to a dissociated feeling with your own body.
There's also a beautiful part of a girl Selena who speaks of how she now "owns" herself again, instead of her rapist keeping her captive (in a figurative speech).
Anyways, I haven't been through anything half as terrible as what this man had to endure in his childhood. But when he spoke of it, some of his words just hit me. It's very peculiar to watch a tv-screen and think; there's someone who understands!
Those numbers are staggering. It's guys like that that make me damn near ashamed of being male...