Geoff stopped talking to me. Stopped emailing me, he won't even answer his door. All he said was that he wasnt' worth it...and that I should come here...I see the posts he makes and wow...what the hell!? I knew he was feeling down but I have to say that I'm stunned. Simply stunned. I'm not entirely sure how I should react.
I mean I realize he can be a bit obtuse and thickheaded but...there were some points where it felt you were basically telling him to give up...followed by a 'not worth our time'....as you were telling him to pick up his self-esteem...
> there were some points where it felt you were basically telling him to give up...followed by a 'not worth our time'....as you were telling him to pick up his self-esteem.
Hello Jinny,
I reread the last two pages of his thread and I do not find where anyone advised him to give up; although, after nine or so pages of frustration a few of us are feeling, I for one have given up on him.
Geoff seems to display self pity along with low self esteem. Every time some course of action is suggested he states he has tried and failed or that this or that has not worked, or, that our suggestions are nonsense.
[quote=Gingerbread Geoff]I wish I could hold on to my self-confidence for longer than three days at a time.... [/quote]
One thought I did not convey to him is that he has to work on a recommended course of action--until; not just try something for an hour or a day or a week, and give up when nothing seems to have changed. People do not change attitude and behavioral patterns quickly. These things take time and prolonged practice when replacing old scripts with new ones and making them become second nature.
[quote=Gingerbread Geoff] I can only think 'God, she's too good for me....and I can't see why she wants anything to do with me'.....[/quote]
Geoff does state more than once how amazing you are and how much he admires you, yet always seems to end each declarative statement with:
* I really do like her, but I often feel she's too good for me.
* I am insecure...I'm kinda boring...I tend....to be odd.
* I sometimes feel she doesn't take me seriously...and maybe I'm just a joke...I don't know...
All I can suggest you try is to get him to have a heart to heart discussion with you discussing his attitudes and impressions about him, about you, your desires, your expectations, etc., and listen to what he says in reply. With every put down of himself, present the truth to each as you know it.
My guess based upon his replies to us is that he will not believe you. If he does believe what you are telling him about you and/or your relationship, or how you see him, yet gives excuses that end up being full of "woe is me" or self pity, or self loathing, then all this negativity he projects regarding himself is going to maintain your relationship's status quo and not give him the changes he says he seeks for himself or you.
Women value a man who exudes self confidence and for all his wishing for change, Geoff certainly does project the negative side of this quality. I am now at a loss for what to say that will help him and am tired at all the roadblocks he erects.
Ginny, I wish you well. Got questions?
-doc
Hi Ginny. Geoff is quite a lucky guy that you've come on here, have read up on what he's been going through, and are trying to help. Kudos to you.
You take issue with us telling him to pick up his self esteem. The thing is, HE has to. HIMSELF. He has to want to be better. And he has to want it bad enough to put in the necessary work. And he has to be willing to take the risk of believing he's good enough.
That is indeed a risk, you know, for people with low self-worth. If you exude "I'm worthless", the replies you get will usually tell you how great you are. If you exude "I'm perfect just the way I am", there's a possibility someone will tell you you're wrong, which only makes you feel worse. And so you assume an attitude of worthlessness so that when people tell you you're wrong, the content makes you feel better about yourself.
I'm not saying he does it on purpose. But subconsciously, that's how this works. And if he doesn't break the cycle of self-loathing and pull his way back out of this, he could very well bring you down with him.
Either he doesn't want (badly enough yet) to get better, or he doesn't believe he's capable of doing so. Either way, no amount of trying from us (or you) will do it for him until he puts in meaningful effort of his own.
[QUOTE=lnt1103;272406]Hi Ginny. Geoff is quite a lucky guy that you've come on here, have read up on what he's been going through, and are trying to help. Kudos to you.
You take issue with us telling him to pick up his self esteem. The thing is, HE has to. HIMSELF. He has to want to be better. And he has to want it bad enough to put in the necessary work. And he has to be willing to take the risk of believing he's good enough.
That is indeed a risk, you know, for people with low self-worth. If you exude "I'm worthless", the replies you get will usually tell you how great you are. If you exude "I'm perfect just the way I am", there's a possibility someone will tell you you're wrong, which only makes you feel worse. And so you assume an attitude of worthlessness so that when people tell you you're wrong, the content makes you feel better about yourself.
I'm not saying he does it on purpose. But subconsciously, that's how this works. And if he doesn't break the cycle of self-loathing and pull his way back out of this, he could very well bring you down with him.
Either he doesn't want (badly enough yet) to get better, or he doesn't believe he's capable of doing so. Either way, no amount of trying from us (or you) will do it for him until he puts in meaningful effort of his own.[/QUOTE]
I don't take issue with you telling him to pick himself up, but to sit there and say he's not worth your effort, and then tell him to pick himself up sends really bad message; doesn't it?
He's been going to a counsellor for a few months, and he was making progress but then suddenly he's had a turn and this is a lot worse than before. Though now I'm worried that he's stopped going to his counselor. Like I said, he won't speak to me. I tried to ambush him this weekend to force him to talk to me, and that's when he said that he wasn't worth it, and that I should come on here so I could see how horrible he was. I tried to tell him otherwise but he got angry and walked off.
I know he thinks I'm too good for him. I also know he's been trying to do everything he can think of to be good like I've said, he was giving me lots of gifts and spending absurd amounts of money on me, and he was upping his activity sexually, and he never had anything bad to say about me even when I know I wasn't always being the most fair to him. I know you guys don't think he's worth it, but in person he's so not like he seems on here. He's sweet and caring and he's been trying so hard for so long. I just don't know what to do, he just seems like he's completely imploded and I'm slightly worried.
Are you willing to sacrifice the rest of your life and that of your possible children for him?
Because that is what it is going to take and even then it may not work because he's not willing to 'stand up and walk'.
I am one of those who became so frustrated with him that I was ready to strangle him and beat his head against a wall. Perhaps in the hope that for once in his life he'd get up on his feet and FIGHT for life. LIFE instead of this existence he lives so people will pat him and say soothingly "Good boy." like he's some injured pet dog.
Either way - I'd just be confirming his own opinion - see Int's post below - so I just stopped.
There are those you simply can NOT help.
[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;272410]Are you willing to sacrifice the rest of your life and that of your possible children for him?
Because that is what it is going to take and even then it may not work because he's not willing to 'stand up and walk'.
I am one of those who became so frustrated with him that I was ready to strangle him and beat his head against a wall. Perhaps in the hope that for once in his life he'd get up on his feet and FIGHT for life. LIFE instead of this existence he lives so people will pat him and say soothingly "Good boy." like he's some injured pet dog.
Either way - I'd just be confirming his own opinion - see Int's post below - so I just stopped.
There are those you simply can NOT help.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I saw your posts. Belittling him helped a lot, I'm sure. I think it was a lot of your posts that contributed to his idea that he was useless because you talked to him as such.
Like I said, he's been putting for effort and then suddenly he just, collapsed. He started feeling paranoid. He got avoidant again, and he'd try to hide it from me by trying to be aggressive and to tell you the truth it didn't feel right coming from him and I felt like he was doing it for the wrong reasons.
I really want to help though. He's so sweet and kind, and I worry about him. I even talked to his parents and friends this weekend and they said he wouldn't talk to them either. I just don't get why now, he was doing really well with his counsellor...
> I don't take issue with you telling him to pick himself up, but to sit there and say he's not worth your effort, and then tell him to pick himself up sends really bad message; doesn't it?
I believe this is backwards and is actually: "...to pick himself up (using techniques suggested) then say he is not worth your effort" after he finds fault with every one of our ideas.
> Though now I'm worried that he's stopped going to his counselor.
This is another of his roadblocks to accepting and believing in the help offered.
> Like I said, he won't speak to me.
And, why? Relationships are partnerships. Communication is key to the success or failure of each.
> and that's when he said that he wasn't worth it, and that I should come on here so I could see how horrible he was. I tried to tell him otherwise but he got angry and walked off.
...worth it? These are his words. If we didn't think he was worth the time and effort several of us are giving to these two threads then what does he think we have been doing here? He is not a horrible person; however, his attitude seems to be.
Why did he get angry and walk off? Maybe because he does not have the answers he seeks. Maybe he believes he has sampled one or more suggestions given to him by his counselor and us and has not found that they work. This is likely because of one or more of the these conditions: 1) he wants a simple fix and is not willing to put in the effort; (2) he believes that suggestions or techniques given him are "nonsense" based upon some preconceived notion that is in fact nonsense (3) he is impatient and unwilling to keep working on a recommended course of action.
I once had a district manager who told his managers at a meeting to "plan your work and work your plan". I will add: work your plan--until. This means you stick with a course of action until you get the results you want. Geoff seems all too ready to toss in the towel at the first hurdle and to dismiss the plan as worthless or nonsense.
> in person he's so not like he seems on here. He's sweet and caring and he's been trying so hard for so long. I just don't know what to do, he just seems like he's completely imploded and I'm slightly worried.
When a person acts a certain way and puts so much effort into what they are doing there has to be a pay off for him/her. What is the pay off for Geoff? There has to be one or he wouldn't be fighting so hard to keep things as they are.
If there is no pay off, then logic would suggest the person seek other avenues of progress in the desired direction. More importantly, the person would be working just as hard in the other direction, and he is not doing so.
If you are successful in getting him to sit down and talk, a suggestion I have for you is to ask him to detail --
A.
B.
C.
the list of reasons he believes he is inadequate, not worthy, etc. and then discuss each one with you telling him the truth of each as you see it.
In addition to him receiving a payoff for his attitude and interaction with you is the payoff he derives from being around you. If he truly believes he is no match for you, then why hasn't he moved on thus saving you all the angst and perceived disappointment he thinks he saddles you with?
I think it is wonderful that he showers you with gifts; yet why? The gifts would seem to be a substitute for his not being willing or able to give of himself. What would you prefer--stuff, or self?
I would much prefer that Geoff give of himself without question or doubt and see what happens. I would much prefer that Geoff devote as much time giving as he does in withholding. Perhaps he is waiting for Divine Intervention before giving of himself despite his imperfections real or imagined. I would prefer that Geoff give of himself while the two of you work in partnership while exploring and learning together. His opinion of himself and your happiness will both improve.
If Geoff is waiting to feel good about himself in all areas and to perform perfectly in all areas of life and togetherness then he is going to be waiting his entire life. He has to give himself permission to have some flaws. He will never be entirely happy if he doesn't give himself the right to have some weaknesses. What I see him doing is striving to hold on to what is and has been rather than taking a chance and striving to do and become better. He is beating himself up for not yet having arrived at his desired goals and complaining about the hardness of the park bench he sits upon while waiting on the sidelines until he gets it all together. I offer this: "if first you do not succeed, try, try, again." Do something, even if it is wrong. If it is, learn from the mistake and try, try, again.
Up to this point what he has been doing seems not to be working, so rather than complain about other avenues, why not place as much time and effort into exploring these new approaches as he has been into maintaining the level of what he has now. Until he has faith in himself and faith in the new approaches and not find fault with each and every recommendation, he will likely never effect change.
This is not unlike giving permission to trust. Whenever the question of "how can I trust (again) is asked, my answer is always that in order for a relationship to get off dead stop and moving, it is necessary for both parties to it to give a basic level of trust. Once the relationship is moving forward, broader and deeper trust is earned by the deeds and reliability and concern shown to the other. The same holds true for this situation. Geoff has got to have enough trust in himself in order to make changes, learn from mistakes, and to give of himself no matter how imperfect he may be right now. As he learns and develops new skills, he will do better because he knows better.
Ginny, encourage him to take a chance and rise to the occasion with your help and not to shrink into self doubt hiding behind closed doors.
On every page of his thread, Geoff seems to say "why not" or "I can't" or "I won't" at least once. The problem is most likely not with the counselor or any of us; rather, by continuing to play back the woe is me scripts he has come to rely upon for reasons only he can voice. If he feels insecure or unworthy then he has to muster enough initial trust in himself to let go just enough to get himself moving in a forward direction. If he will give himself permission and not find fault every time, I predict a great future. If he will wake up in the morning and dare to declare "I like who I am--I'm not perfect, yet I am growing, and acknowledging everything good about him he will have then opened the door to cultivate new seeds he has begun to sow.
-doc
[QUOTE=dancingdoc2;272413]I believe this is backwards .[/QUOTE]
To him I think it's the same difference....
[QUOTE]> Like I said, he won't speak to me.
And, why? Relationships are partnerships. Communication is key to the success or failure of each.[/QUOTE]
I think he thinks I'll reject him if he told me. He's so paranoid and frustrated right now...it's hard saying what's actually going through his head.
[QUOTE]> and that's when he said that he wasn't worth it, and that I should come on here so I could see how horrible he was. I tried to tell him otherwise but he got angry and walked off.
...worth it? These are his words. If we didn't think he was worth the time and effort several of us are giving to these two threads then what does he think we have been doing here? He is not a horrible person; however, his attitude seems to be.[/QUOTE]
The way he's talked in the past is that he percieves some people's responses as being simply teasing or being well degrading. And other people he thinks are just parrotting the same old stuff repeatedly. I think the phrase he used was Dime-store Doctor Phil-ery.
[QUOTE]Why did he get angry and walk off? Maybe because he does not have the answers he seeks. Maybe he believes he has sampled one or more suggestions given to him by his counselor and us and has not found that they work. [/QUOTE]
I don't know. Like I said he was doing so well, he was happy and things were going great and then wham; it was like he completely reverted back and then some.
[QUOTE]When a person acts a certain way and puts so much effort into what they are doing there has to be a pay off for him/her. What is the pay off for Geoff? There has to be one or he wouldn't be fighting so hard to keep things as they are.
If there is no pay off, then logic would suggest the person seek other avenues of progress in the desired direction. More importantly, the person would be working just as hard in the other direction, and he is not doing so.
If you are successful in getting him to sit down and talk, a suggestion I have for you is to ask him to detail --[/QUOTE]
I think deep down inside he really wants to have someone to care for, but repeatedly just in the way he acts, and the way he responds to things...I think he's really afraid of someone depending on him and caring him. He's afraid of being loved and liking it and then losing it. I mean once or twice he's told me that he's afraid of what I mean to him. It kinda scares him that he cares for me and that he knows I should just leave him.
[QUOTE]the list of reasons he believes he is inadequate, not worthy, etc. and then discuss each one with you telling him the truth of each as you see it.[/QUOTE]
We've done this before, his counselor suggested it. Each one was a drag down fight about how the examples I produced didn't count. It's like he's trying to keep me at arms length while at the same time snuggle close to me.
[QUOTE]In addition to him receiving a payoff for his attitude and interaction with you is the payoff he derives from being around you. If he truly believes he is no match for you, then why hasn't he moved on thus saving you all the angst and perceived disappointment he thinks he saddles you with?
I think it is wonderful that he showers you with gifts; yet why? The gifts would seem to be a substitute for his not being willing or able to give of himself. What would you prefer--stuff, or self? [/QUOTE]
I'd prefer him. Though I have to admit being slightly worried what he'd come out as if he did change. I guess I've been slightly guilty of indulging him because I liked him being timid and gentle and slightly terrified. It felt safe.
[QUOTE]I would much prefer that Geoff give of himself without question or doubt and see what happens. I would much prefer that Geoff devote as much time giving as he does in withholding. Perhaps he is waiting for Divine Intervention before giving of himself despite his imperfections real or imagined. I would prefer that Geoff give of himself while the two of you work in partnership while exploring and learning together. His opinion of himself and your happiness will both improve.[/QUOTE]
I'd prefer that too, but I don't think that Geoff is capable of that. I think that's part of the reason for the gifts. I like his parents but they can be rather demanding, and at times I've gotten the feeling that Geoff doesn't think they'd love him if he wasn't doing something that makes them proud. I don't know how true that is, but I get hte feeling that in Geoff's family love wasn't exactly unconditional or at least that's the way it comes off when you listen to Geoff. And that gay scare thing didn't help, I get the feeling from his mother that he spent a lot of his college totally cut off from his parents, or at least as cutoff as possible.
[QUOTE]If Geoff is waiting to feel good about himself in all areas and to perform perfectly in all areas of life and togetherness then he is going to be waiting his entire life. He has to give himself permission to have some flaws. He will never be entirely happy if he doesn't give himself the right to have some weaknesses. What I see him doing is striving to hold on to what is and has been rather than taking a chance and striving to do and become better. He is beating himself up for not yet having arrived at his desired goals and complaining about the hardness of the park bench he sits upon while waiting on the sidelines until he gets it all together. I offer this: "if first you do not succeed, try, try, again." Do something, even if it is wrong. If it is, learn from the mistake and try, try, again.[/QUOTE]
And that's something that's easy enough to say hypothetically when you're the one that has everything moderately put together, but for a person who sometimes doubts whether or not it's worth the effort to get out of bed, or even bother to think about opening their eyes in the morning; you have to realize that that's a Herculean effort. I'm not supporting his decisions but at least I can have sympathy for him. You lot can say all you want about all he needs to do is 'act like someone better' 'try try again' 'pick himself up by the bootstraps and go', 'fight for his life' or most insultingly (yes insultingly) 'put some effort into it', because you aren't the ones doing it, and it's an incredibly painful and for him hateful process, and I really don't think it gets easier for him over time. I've watched him fight back for eight months, and struggle every day, and many times watched him just barely not completely fail, and many times I've watched him pretend not to be in just absurd amounts of emotional pain, knowing the whole time that there's not a whole lot that I can do for him but be there and try and shoulder it.
[QUOTE]Up to this point what he has been doing seems not to be working, so rather than complain about other avenues, why not place as much time and effort into exploring these new approaches as he has been into maintaining the level of what he has now. Until he has faith in himself and faith in the new approaches and not find fault with each and every recommendation, he will likely never effect change.
This is not unlike giving permission to trust. Whenever the question of "how can I trust (again) is asked, my answer is always that in order for a relationship to get off dead stop and moving, it is necessary for both parties to it to give a basic level of trust. Once the relationship is moving forward, broader and deeper trust is earned by the deeds and reliability and concern shown to the other. The same holds true for this situation. Geoff has got to have enough trust in himself in order to make changes, learn from mistakes, and to give of himself no matter how imperfect he may be right now. As he learns and develops new skills, he will do better because he knows better.
On every page of his thread, Geoff seems to say "why not" or "I can't" or "I won't" at least once. The problem is most likely not with the counselor or any of us; rather, by continuing to play back the woe is me scripts he has come to rely upon for reasons only he can voice. If he feels insecure or unworthy then he has to muster enough initial trust in himself to let go just enough to get himself moving in a forward direction. If he will give himself permission and not find fault every time, I predict a great future. If he will wake up in the morning and dare to declare "I like who I am--I'm not perfect, yet I am growing, and acknowledging everything good about him he will have then opened the door to cultivate new seeds he has begun to sow.
[/QUOTE]
Because right now, right here, I think his entire emotional equity is tied up in not completely going super nova. His hands are literally full with not destroying his life either socially or physically. You get to spend your equity pretending to be Ricardo Montablan or who ever you think you should be. He has to burn up everything he has just to get to the front door of his home and go to work without balling up into a fetal position cringing from the internal dialogue raging through his head. Every instinct he knows, and every feeling he feels are against him, he's fighting himself constantly and I think a lot of time's he's lucky if he gets a pyrrhic victory. I mean, how can you have faith in yourself when yourself is constantly ripping at you incessantly. How can you trust a person who would burn your face off if given half the chance? Like I said, I know he has to get better, that this is not beneficial for him or me but god damn it I can sympathize a little bit better about it and not give pithy platitudes that make it sound like he's a lazy jerk who can't be bothered.
Things like this take CONSISTENT effort over a long period of time. Relapses are common and happen, but if they're to the attitude where a person already has preconceived answers to their own questions set in their mind, there isn't anything anyone can do. Everything just gets spun with whatever excuse the person thinks of so that it fits and at this point they're not really trying to improve or putting effort into things, they're just sitting down moping and want company. This is also the point where those attempting to help will usually try to get the other person to stand back up, but they have to do it themselves. He is not, and it isn't worth people's time to try to help someone walk when they won't stand up in the first place.
Perhaps take a look at the old Franklin thread and replace "ears" with "not worth".
>>Belittling him helped a lot, I'm sure. I think it was a lot of your posts that contributed to his idea that he was useless because you talked to him as such.
None of this is EEK's fault. Or DD2's, or mine, or yours, or anyone else's. Really, it's not even Geoff's. His image of himself is incredibly unhealthy. Even though struggling people and the people who care about them need someone to blame, no one "did" anything to him except try to help and go unheard.
>>You lot can say all you want about all he needs to do is 'act like someone better' 'try try again' 'pick himself up by the bootstraps and go', 'fight for his life' or most insultingly (yes insultingly) 'put some effort into it', because you aren't the ones doing it, and it's an incredibly painful and for him hateful process, and I really don't think it gets easier for him over time.
I know. Cuz I've been there. I've been the one doing it. I never sought professional help for it, although I considered it at one point and probably should have. I still battle small threads of it to this day, but I don't let them get the better of me.
Did you read my post to him where I told him his "door to believing (that he's good enough) has to be open", and where I spoke about Nic Vujicic? Can you see how he utterly 180'd my point, how he turned it around and used it as yet more "evidence" that he's worthless, and how closed his door is?
DD2 is right, what the heck were we trying to do if he's not worth it? We were getting nowhere because he refuses to believe it. My dad has this saying: "can't" never did anything. No matter what anyone said to Geoff, all they got in reply was "can't". THAT...the 9 pages of trying so hard only to be shut out completely...is what wasn't worth it, not him. I know, he doesn't see the difference, but that's part of the whole cycle.
And it IS a cycle. What you say about his parents is incredibly powerful. He believes it of himself because it's all he was told his whole life by those who knew him best. Truth were told, they probably have fairly low self-worth too, and it made them feel better to make him feel bad. Which is probably because it's how they were treated by their parents. And it cycles, because that's the only way he knows to treat people, so he will treat you and your possible future children the same way---UNLESS HE BREAKS THE CYCLE.
Ginny, I will need to inbox you personally. Generally, after awhile of anything that gets repeated on this site in general, people just get...for a lack of a better word...tired. It happens.
I get it...
I just wish I could help him.
You may wish you could help him but how he is - made you feel safe.
"I'd prefer him. Though I have to admit being slightly worried what he'd come out as if he did change. I guess I've been slightly guilty of indulging him because I liked him being timid and gentle and slightly terrified. It felt safe."
Think about that.
Last night I perused your thread from about a year ago, about Jim. I believe his poor self-image is why Geoff got sad instead of angry. I'm not claiming a cause-effect relationship or that the Jim Thing caused this, but I believe that event, and Geoff's self-worth problem, fed into each other. In Geoff's mind, it provided evidence to back up his low opinion of himself.
Of course you wish you could help him. That's natural, because you care about him. But this is seated deeper than you can reach. Geoff's been battling this demon for a very long time. Probably most of his life.
[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;272439]You may wish you could help him but how he is - made you feel safe.
"I'd prefer him. Though I have to admit being slightly worried what he'd come out as if he did change. I guess I've been slightly guilty of indulging him because I liked him being timid and gentle and slightly terrified. It felt safe."
Think about that.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I know I haven't been fair to him. I don't want him like he is now. I want him like he was when I met him or or how he was before he fell apart. The gentle guy, the sweet guy...who was a little timid which made things feel even more special because I knew he was just sharing things with me. I know that sounds horribly selfish. Now he's just raw and lost.
It seems, Ginny, that you are both getting 'props' from this 'relationship' as it is.
You are needed and he's getting stroked.
So why should this relationship change?
Not selfish. Human.
But my concern for you, Ginny, is that once he breaks the cycle and becomes able to "stroke" himself (to borrow EEK's term), he won't need you anymore. Then you'll be the one feeling raw and lost. What you have done for him is huge---don't disregard that. But what do you GET, FROM him? That aspect must be present too.
While I do believe that life partnerships eventually reach a level of mutual need, they should start out as mutual WANT. Trust me, I've been here too. If you enter someone's life because they need you, that becomes the whole basis of the relationship. I know, it feels good to be needed by someone. It feels good to contribute to someone's life. Filling their holes, fills ours. But when they're back on their feet and don't need your help anymore, you're left high and dry again. The holes that were filled by filling the other person up, empty out again.
Geoff needs to fill his own holes instead of looking to someone else to do it for him. You need to be the icing on the cake instead of the pot roast and potatoes.
[QUOTE=lnt1103;272458]Not selfish. Human.
But my concern for you, Ginny, is that once he breaks the cycle and becomes able to "stroke" himself (to borrow EEK's term), he won't need you anymore. Then you'll be the one feeling raw and lost. What you have done for him is huge---don't disregard that. But what do you GET, FROM him? That aspect must be present too.
While I do believe that life partnerships eventually reach a level of mutual need, they should start out as mutual WANT. Trust me, I've been here too. If you enter someone's life because they need you, that becomes the whole basis of the relationship. I know, it feels good to be needed by someone. It feels good to contribute to someone's life. Filling their holes, fills ours. But when they're back on their feet and don't need your help anymore, you're left high and dry again. The holes that were filled by filling the other person up, empty out again.
Geoff needs to fill his own holes instead of looking to someone else to do it for him. You need to be the icing on the cake instead of the pot roast and potatoes.[/QUOTE]
I don't see him as needing me now. Even with this implosion, it's marked almost exclusively by him not being clingy. He never approached me, I approached him, I asked him out and I persued him, it was only after we had been going out for a bit that he turned the tables and started to persue me in reciprocation. He was the one that decided to go to the councilor, I didn't force him or even ask. You all act like he's so incapable or unmoving...he's not and that's what is frustrating...especially when some of us belittle others....
As to what I was getting from him. Companionship. He's sweet and I like being with him, he makes me laugh, he's interesting we talked and conversed and it was just pleasant to be with him, even when he was being avoidant it wasn't ever painful as it is now, and I'm hurting from the external loss and confusion, he's hurting from the inside and it has nothing to do with me.
He showed up at my door this afternoon. He apologized for acting like an idiot. We had a rather long talk about things. It went slowly. He said he just feels bad. He said things have been really stressful at work, he was afraid he could get laid off and he was afraid he'd turn into a deadbeat boyfriend and he didn't want to, and that he said it kind of turned everything against him and pretty soon he didn't trust anyone. He then said that he'd understand if I wasn't interested. I told him that he can't think like that and that I'm willing if he promised to keep going to the counselor and promised to work on his attitude. I told him that I cared for him very much and that he really worried me. He nodded and then we chatted a little bit more and I asked if he wanted to stick around for supper and he suggested that I go with him out and well. We went out and he was very gentlemanly as usual and we talked and it was very decent.