It is a shame that your original thread was ghijacked by some net guerrillas pushing their view. You seem to have gotten your answer - and then some.
I appreciate your comment about who was misleading. It is interesting that we had two circumcision threads in two days with three newbies descending upon us with anit- ideas. Vikingirl signed in and then immediately posted only on a circumcision thread. Unusual that a woman would find that as a place to start.
Good luck.[/quote]
I thought about the same; the first place to begin a thread as a female. LOL!
Same, Good luck Ray--sorry I gave you the link though to the pics! LOL! :)
[QUOTE=Brandye;216830]It is a shame that your original thread was ghijacked by some net guerrillas pushing their view.[/QUOTE]The fallacy of Argument ad hominem (attacking the person instead of their argument). What's a net guerrilla? Is sexinfo101 some kind of exclusive club for some special kind of people? (It seems to be a place where one or two self-appointed experts lay down dogma from on high. That may have some validity in some particular places where sex intersects medicine, but circumcision is a special case: having the parts in question may make a person better informed than living in an environment devoted to cutting them off.)
I haven't actually seen anything of substance in support of circumcision here. Only references to news items referring to original papers that I have read and found the flaws in (and a lot of personal attacks). For example, you both seem to have a particular thing about cervical cancer, for an obvious reason, but would you care to provide some references for your claim that circumcision prevents cervical cancer, and by how much. (I've read the Castellsagué paper and it's rubbish. I show why here.) The "how much" is important because it can give us an idea of the Number Needed to Treat and hence the risk-benefit ratio. Circumcision is neither cost-free nor risk-free. "Circumcision prevents X, therefore circumcise then all" is not good enough.
It is a shame that your original thread was ghijacked by some net guerrillas pushing their view. You seem to have gotten your answer - and then some.
I appreciate your comment about who was misleading. It is interesting that we had two circumcision threads in two days with three newbies descending upon us with anit- ideas. Vikingirl signed in and then immediately posted only on a circumcision thread. Unusual that a woman would find that as a place to start.
Good luck.[/QUOTE]Despite the fact the exchanges have gotten heated at times I don't think the thread was "hijacked", unless having a strong opinion on this subject counts as such. Yes, lots of first time or newer posters, but so what? For the most part it's stayed on topic and shared valuable links, whether you agree with the conclusions or not. Would you have felt they were "net guerrillas " if they had a pro-circ position similar to yours? I could have done without the personal digs and snide remarks from both sides, though.
Unless I've missed the point of this board attracting new contributors with something to say is how it's going to remain healthy (or at least interesting). Traffic here has been mighty slow the last few months anyway . . . hopefully it'll pick up in other areas rather than just this subject.
And yes Ron, good luck whatever your decision. I'm sure you got much, much more than you bargained for! :D
It is a shame that your original thread was ghijacked by some net guerrillas pushing their view. You seem to have gotten your answer - and then some.
I appreciate your comment about who was misleading. It is interesting that we had two circumcision threads in two days with three newbies descending upon us with anit- ideas. Vikingirl signed in and then immediately posted only on a circumcision thread. Unusual that a woman would find that as a place to start.
Good luck.[/QUOTE]
I've posted in another “circ thread” my thoughts regarding this issue, but I will state again my opinion of the very disconcerting attitude towards the sexual health of men that the "medical professionals" (ie: Brandye and Sera) whom post on this board have. It is incredibly biased, unprofessional, and emotive.
For those whom consider their views “scientific”, it’s a wonder why they only source certain articles that get debunked by other more recent articles. They clearly also show no sense about how rational discourse and debate is done. They post their points of view and then ignore the rational arguments which point out the flaws in their own, and then immediately resort to personal attack and straw-man fallacies.
For someone with science backgrounds whom regards themselves in a high manner of medical trust, you two should be ashamed of yourselves for your behavior regarding this topic.
I will apologize only if Brandye can start citing sources for her pro-circ argument regarding cervical cancer in women. Ones that have not been debunked or shown flawed by other more recent or further in-depth studies. Brandye so far has failed to do such. Hugh et al. has showed their cards (ie: strong evidence and sound logic), where is yours??
BTW, I don’t have a medical background, but I do have a masters degree in engineering (and an awesome B.S. detector). I know how the science method and rational discourse works - maybe some here should brush up on it as well.
As I said you do not practice medicine. Nor do you have a background in it. I do as does Brandye. Get over yourself until you hold office hours or work in an ER. Big deal an Master's in engineering...I hold several Master's as well. What is your point? How many patents do YOU hold?
Frankly your ideas/posts appear idiotic to the medical profession--you are just disgracing your self.
Well of course people get emotional about it. Emotion IS reality. It really angers me to hear people glibly say that males should be circumcised as a matter of course. If a person makes an informed decision to get themselves circumsized, then fine, that is their decision. However, I am firmly of the opinion that it should never be inflicted involuntarily on a child. Just because sera and Brandye practice medicine does not give them the last word on the subject, or any special authority for that matter. The issue of circumcision is more than a purely technical medical decision.
[quote=cyclefreak;217417]Well of course people get emotional about it. Emotion IS reality. It really angers me to hear people glibly say that males should be circumcised as a matter of course. If a person makes an informed decision to get themselves circumsized, then fine, that is their decision. However, I am firmly of the opinion that it should never be inflicted involuntarily on a child. Just because sera and Brandye practice medicine does not give them the last word on the subject, or any special authority for that matter. The issue of circumcision is more than a purely technical medical decision.[/quote] Cycle: I am not emotional over it; I believe in choice. However, in the US medical practice is left for the parent to choose. It's a system which is not changed through medical professionals since the elective option is placed upon the parent, no one forces the parent to make any choice. What is presented to a parent by gyn & peds is the pro/con of having such done. If I had a son, I am not certain which way I would go.
The one major issue I do have is if we in the US cannot teach proper STD protection & proper sex education; how do you inform a teen male as to their choice and are they capable of making a good choice pro/con when they cannot even discuss their own sexuality with a parent? When they are sexually active many men & women allow condoms to fall by the wayside. At that time the exposure is already in existence. Hence, spreading disease has begun.
I honestly believe many parents have to get off their abstinence stance and look at the reality of life. Similar to years ago, the worse outcome was your child/teen became pregnant, now the risks [diseases] are the worse outcome. Greatest fear is a teen becoming infected with HIV due to lack of knowledge.
The system presents options...we do not force them. I discussed much of this when my family member was going to have a male son. For a reason, it's ingrained in the male mind, "this should be done", whereas, my sister-in-law was more open to waiting.
Proper sex education and access to BC is what is needed in the US. Parents need to wake up since "hiding their head in the sand" regarding their teens sexuality may cost the teen their life due to parental ignorance.
Changing the system is done through lobbying on issues & Bush and his abstinence policy is ludicrous.
As I said you do not practice medicine. Nor do you have a background in it. I do as does Brandye. Get over yourself until you hold office hours or work in an ER. Big deal an Master's in engineering...I hold several Master's as well. What is your point? How many patents do YOU hold?
Frankly your ideas/posts appear idiotic to the medical profession--you are just disgracing your self.[/QUOTE]
Obviously you don't hold a masters in debate, otherwise you would understand that your entire argument is based around an appeal to authority.
Just because we don't hold a medical degree (or don't claim to) does not mean our arguments are not valid ones. Arguments which, you cannot seem to counter using sound logic and avoid resorting to insults and personal attacks.
My point was clear that the arguments that Hugh et al. bring up have yet been addressed. You resort to personal attack and appeal to authority and Brandye also used personal attack and red herring.
Please address our argument directly. If you cannot then you lose the argument regardless of the degrees any of us hold.
Furthermore, you are only discrediting yourself and "disgracing" yourself when you make claims such as; my "idea's are idiotic to the medical profession" [sic]. Since when? Hugh has brought up a huge list of medical associations all over the world that agree with my side of the debate. I can even name one off the top of my head: D.O.C (Doctors Opposing Circumcision).
Debate? Yes, a Master's of Public Administration & Public Policy--currently working to complete a PhD in the same focus on Policy Reform & Health care.
Also, Hold MSN, NP, BS in Nursing, BS in dual Business & Paralegal...MSN was in research. Teach in Undergrad & Grad level of Poli. Sci. With a strong degrees & background in Advanced Des. Structures, Math, & comp. Sci.
Additionally published in Peer Reviewed Scholarly Reviews. National Member as well in the US. Personal attacks; no, correcting the "US system" which seems unfamiliar to you; hold your criticism for a person who cares; after you practice Medicine and see the infections & diseases. Perhaps you need to be taught about disease modes of transmission.
Debate? Yes, a Master's of Public Administration & Public Policy--currently working to complete a PhD in the same focus on Policy Reform & Health care.
Also, Hold MSN, NP, BS in Nursing, BS in dual Business & Paralegal...MSN was in research. Teach in Undergrad & Grad level of Poli. Sci. With a strong degrees & background in Advanced Des. Structures, Math, & comp. Sci.
Additionally published in Peer Reviewed Scholarly Reviews. National Member as well in the US. Personal attacks; no, correcting the "US system" which seems unfamiliar to you; hold your criticism for a person who cares; after you practice Medicine and see the infections & diseases. Perhaps you need to be taught about disease modes of transmission.[/QUOTE]
I smell a huge pile of B.S.
Regardless, you could hold a thousand more degrees and it still doesn't change the fact that you have clearly lost the debate. Since you refuse to refute our arguments point by point, and insist on your logical fallacies. Of which, I have tried to get you to see with the links I posted.
Regardless, you could hold a thousand more degrees and it still doesn't change the fact that you have clearly lost the debate. Since you refuse to refute our arguments point by point, and insist on your logical fallacies. Of which, I have tried to get you to see with the links I posted.[/quote] The B.S you smell is your own, check you anus for the smell. Refute Your debates, plural? No do need to. Face it there is a standard in the US & it is abide by...like it or not.
When men learn to wash well & use condoms--Life may change.
Your frankly not worth my time or anyone else's since you cannot debate your way out of a paper bag & your info is useless. Anyone can create a cause with a website to support such. Read your links? Why since it does not have any value to me. And it's spelled CIRCUMCISION.
I can understand Cyclefreak & DVD--yet you, et al. sound like a group of idiots attempting to begin a grassroots movement & lack any such power. The best attempts you can do is go on a sex board and spew a group of political views v. answer the OP's question...you as the other which have just appeared, are dismissed. Not worth mine or Brandye's time.
Yes, Amazon anyone can get a book published BTW. I am happy to hand over my degrees & work to the moderators of this site; they will be able to validate me. Now, get your publications is a peer reviewed scholarly publication--not just among citing a book which anyone can sponsor. Meaning, I enjoy EEK writing & I am happy to get her published among S&S or any other Publishing company.
Since Hugh7 (Hugh Young) vanished. Little research & same terminology--he's of questionable character & appears to be one of many "alias" on this site. I suggest he stop asking for donations for his lifestyle...don't realize what I mean, do some research...LOL!
Since you are an Engineer, in what area since there are many and how many patents do you personally hold???? Or do you need a PhD for that? LOL!
[QUOTE=sera300;217443]
The B.S you smell is your own, check you anus for the smell. Refute Your debates, plural? No do need to. Face it there is a standard in the US & it is abide by...like it or not.
[COLOR="Magenta">Wow...Just because there is a standard does not mean it's right. There used to be standards/laws for treatment of African Americans as slaves. It used to be legal to beat your wife. At one point many eons ago, it used to be legal to sell children into slave trading.
[/COLOR]
When men learn to wash well & use condoms--Life may change.
[COLOR="Magenta">This is the most sexist comment I have ever heard coming from a self proclaimed trusted medical professional. You should be ashamed of yourself[/COLOR].
Your frankly not worth my time or anyone else's since you cannot debate your way out of a paper bag & your info is useless. Anyone can create a cause with a website to support such. Read your links? Why since it does not have any value to me. And it's spelled CIRCUMCISION.
[COLOR="Magenta">
Sorry for my spelling mistake. It's a wonder to me that you point that one out yet you refuse to correct your own plethora of grammatical errors and spelling mistakes. Aside from that, what power was given to you to decide that my argument and "info" is "useless", and that I cannot "argue my way out of a paper bag" [sic]?[/COLOR]
I can understand Cyclefreak & DVD--yet you, et al. sound like a group of idiots attempting to begin a grassroots movement & lack any such power. The best attempts you can do is go on a sex board and spew a group of political views v. answer the OP's question...you as the other which have just appeared, are dismissed. Not worth mine or Brandye's time.
[COLOR="Magenta">AD HOMINEM[/COLOR]
Yes, Amazon anyone can get a book published BTW. I am happy to hand over my degrees & work to the moderators of this site; they will be able to validate me. Now, get your publications is a peer reviewed scholarly publication--not just among citing a book which anyone can sponsor. Meaning, I enjoy EEK writing & I am happy to get her published among S&S or any other Publishing company.
[COLOR="Magenta">WTF???!!!!! What relevance does this have to the discussion please?[/COLOR]
Since Hugh7 (Hugh Young) vanished. Little research & same terminology--he's of questionable character & appears to be one of many "alias" on this site. I suggest he stop asking for donations for his lifestyle...don't realize what I mean, do some research...LOL!
[COLOR="Magenta">
Ad Hominem[/COLOR]
Since you are an Engineer, in what area since there are many and how many patents do you personally hold???? Or do you need a PhD for that? LOL!
[COLOR="Magenta">
I'm a geotechnical/environmental engineer. And here is where you strip all credibility from yourself. Why in Zues would you ask me for my patents????? Engineers don't have to hold patents. Like medicine, engineers have licenses to practice engineering consulting or work for industry. In either, in order to sign/stamp your own work, you need a professional engineering designation. Please explain why you want to know how many patents I hold? Or, to what relevance this is to this discussion. I brought it up to make you look foolish and you have only managed to increase this effect. [/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]
I think that this discussion is done. I seriously can't beleive someone with as much education as you claim to have, can be so willfully ignorant and plain stupid. And what a waste too. I was really impressed with your advice regarding other topics and issues, but your attitude here leaves your credibility with me severely tainted.
[QUOTE=sera300;217456]Face it you should be ashamed of your self!
[COLOR="Magenta">For what pray tell?[/COLOR]
Yes, dear, Engineers have patents, LOL! Wake up...I know one well with 63!
[COLOR="Magenta"> ANYONE may hold a patent. Just because you have invented a small trinklet or do-dad, doesn't make you an engineer. A P.Eng. designation which is an earned designation after a 4 year B.Eng. from a credited university and 4 years of a recognized E.I.T status from the provincial/state engineering board; earns you your engineering status. Again, what relevance does this have to this discussion of circumcision? You are the one that brought up education!!
[/COLOR]
You have no logic. Keep spreading STD's...have fun with it!:rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
I think it's pretty clear here who is being the bigger person. Keep the insults coming, because it is only evidence for our case that routine circumcision has no scientific or medically grounded reason in neonates. And therefore, it should NOT be up to the parents discretion to simply cut it off on a whim. If it is ever decided to be done for therapeutic reasons it should be decided on by the person going to be cut and recommended by a physician with no prejudice either way. Not the parents or a doctor or anyone else!! This is the way it should be and this is the where it is moving. However, you and Brandye disagree. Why?? You have yet to make a sound and logical case. And frankly I'm beginning to doubt both of your self proclaimed medical expertise. Especially since you both refuse to acknowledge the scientific studies presented by us and have nothing but emotive arguments which give the impression that you do not understand the entire issue. Your behavior is in a manner which is completely opposite that one would expect a professional to act regarding their area of expertise. It is absolutely revolting.
[quote=fassol;217458]I think it's pretty clear here who is being the bigger person. Keep the insults coming, because it is only evidence for our case that routine circumcision has no scientific or medically grounded reason in neonates. And therefore, it should NOT be up to the parents discretion to simply cut it off on a whim. If it is ever decided to be done for therapeutic reasons it should be decided on by the person going to be cut and recommended by a physician with no prejudice either way. Not the parents or a doctor or anyone else!! This is the way it should be and this is the where it is moving. However, you and Brandye disagree. Why?? You have yet to make a sound and logical case. And frankly I'm beginning to doubt both of your self proclaimed medical expertise. Especially since you both refuse to acknowledge the scientific studies presented by us and have nothing but emotive arguments which give the impression that you do not understand the entire issue. Your behavior is in a manner which is completely opposite that one would expect a professional to act regarding their area of expertise. It is absolutely revolting.[/quote]
Yes, it's clear who is the better off person--myself and not you! Cannot stand a bit of criticism from women? Have some issue with them? Sure sounds as if you are a female hater! Despise authority as well. Go to another country where you get the medical care YOU wish...pretty simple is it not?
Engineers hold many patents...ever hear of semi-con? Also know a few Environmental Engineers with a PhD who hold patents.
In the US it's parental choice...like it or not. How can you doubt medical expertise when you hold no medical background!!!! LOL! You are a laugh and a half! Expertise form Us? Sorry I follow medical standards & not those issued by an environmental engineer. Obviously you have no understanding of Medical practice. Other than your phallic obsession!
If you do not care for the NHS & the US standard; testify before the Congressional Committee. Don't care for my or Brandye's Medical expertise; tough & move where practice is different. Better yet; I'll submit my credentials to the Mods on the site and you can have my license revoked!
Best read about the "Balk/Calista" Model and the DHS!
[QUOTE=sera300;217472]Yes, it's clear who is the better off person--myself and not you! Cannot stand a bit of criticism from women? Have some issue with them? Sure sounds as if you are a female hater! [COLOR="Magenta">(and now I'm a female hater)[/COLOR] Despise authority as well. Go to another country where you get the medical care YOU wish...pretty simple is it not?
Engineers hold many patents...ever hear of semi-con? Also know a few Environmental Engineers with a PhD who hold patents. [COLOR="Magenta">(again, relevance? Also, I know hundreds that don't. Patents are not indicitive of the engineering profession nor are they a requirement.)[/COLOR]
In the US it's parental choice...like it or not. How can you doubt medical expertise when you hold no medical background!!!! [COLOR="Magenta">(Appeal to authority)[/COLOR] LOL! [COLOR="Magenta">(<---Nice touch) [/COLOR]You are a laugh and a half! Expertise form Us? Sorry I follow medical standards & not those issued by an environmental engineer. Obviously you have no understanding of Medical practice. Other than your phallic obsession!
If you do not care for the NHS & the US standard; testify before the Congressional Committee. Don't care for my or Brandye's Medical expertise; tough & move where practice is different. Better yet; I'll submit my credentials to the Mods on the site and you can have my license revoked!
Best read about the "Balk/Calista" Model and the DHS![/QUOTE]
My only hope is that bright and eloquent people are reading this discourse that I am having with you. Apparently, to disagree with Sera and Brandye on sexinfo101.com means to have STD's and be women haters. Any other ad hominems while we're at it?
Your attitude is pitiful at best and disgraceful and intolerant at worst. The sheer ridiculousness and the obvious ignorance that you display in general (and especially towards my engineering profession) is shocking for someone who claims such a high level of authority through schooling.
[quote=fassol;217490]My only hope is that bright and eloquent people are reading this discourse that I am having with you. Apparently, to disagree with Sera and Brandye on sexinfo101.com means to have STD's and be women haters. Any other ad hominems while we're at it?
Your attitude is pitiful at best and disgraceful and intolerant at worst. The sheer ridiculousness and the obvious ignorance that you display in general (and especially towards my engineering profession) is shocking for someone who claims such a high level of authority through schooling.[/quote]
"Schooling"...no, Master moving to Scholar...I know a great deal about Environmental Engineering as well as other types of Engineers.
Yes, pick at women...great display of a man with no heart...LOL! As I continues to state; get into medical practice, then state your case. One of my LTR partners was an Environmental Engineer...he laughs at you! Like me to ask him to sign on? Even he has Patented technology & holds IP rights.
Know about semi-con? Look at the Patents held by one individual. Awesome. Patent the technology, implement it, cause it to work, and drive the ESC field since all others failed design & in implementation.
[QUOTE=sera300;217491]"Schooling"...no, Master moving to Scholar...I know a great deal about Environmental Engineering as well as other types of Engineers.
[COLOR="Magenta">
No you don't.[/COLOR]
Yes, pick at women...great display of a man with no heart...LOL!
[COLOR="Magenta">
Please show me where I have been misogynistic and I will apologize for rude behavior directed specifically to women. [/COLOR]
As I continues to state;
[COLOR="Magenta">Ouch. Your grammar is killing me. Please stop.[/COLOR]
get into medical practice, then state your case.
[COLOR="Magenta">...[/COLOR]
One of my LTR partners was an Environmental Engineer...he laughs at you! Like me to ask him to sign on? Even he has Patented technology & holds IP rights.
[COLOR="Magenta">
How hard is your head? I will state again, that patents ARE NOT A REQUIREMENT FOR THE ENGINEERING PROFESSION. NOR ARE THEY INDICATIVE OF THE PROFESSION!! IF YOUR BOYFRIEND LAUGHS, THEN HE IS AS STUPID AS YOU ARE AND SHOULD HAVE HIS PRIVLEDGES AS A PRACTICING ENGINEER REVOKED. AND I SAY AGAIN, WHAT RELEVANCE DOES THIS HAVE??
Was that clear enough for you?!?! [/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]
... (I snipped the rest as it was sheer non-sense and has no relevance to the real discussion of circumcision in neonates)...
[quote=fassol;217493]... (I snipped the rest as it was sheer non-sense and has no relevance to the real discussion of circumcision in neonates)...[/quote] I know nothing about Environmental Engineering...that's a laugh. You are about as dense as they come! yes, my former fiance is well renowned; his travel to other Country's and the schedule killed us.
Frankly, YOU are an idiot. Any moron can have a patent. However, in the industry, it's taking very seriously--as you are not.
AGAIN GO PRACTICE MEDICINE; GET YOUR DEGREE AND CLINICAL EXPERIENCE!
To the moderators may I post my full name, degrees, clinical experience, and scholarly articles??????
Yes, I am willing to post my family & the patents, IP, what/who they are, who is involved, and my former fiance (with their permission)?
I love it, individuals who have a theory & no medical practice!
As I said testify before the Congressional Committees if this is that significant to you! :rolleyes:
My point regarding circumcision has no bearing being an Environmental Engineer...perhaps you missed the point of Medical practice & clinical practice. You are merely acting on emotions! Too funny! Work in an ER, Trauma Unit [Shock Trauma] and use some political clout to change the NHS & US System!
As far as "grammar"; work long hours, get up in the middle of the night to save a life, teach, sit on a few BOD, build a structure or ten, be a philanthropist, and work on a PhD...you might be tired as well.
Just let fassol go, Sera. Don't waste your time and energy-God knows you've got more than enough (more important) pursuits to spend them on. From what I've seen, your information is quality and well intentioned while he likes to argue and belittle because it makes him feel more important than he is.
[quote=lnt1103;217502]Just let fassol go, Sera. Don't waste your time and energy-God knows you've got more than enough (more important) pursuits to spend them on. From what I've seen, your information is quality and well intentioned while he likes to argue and belittle because it makes him feel more important than he is.[/quote] Good thought! I was hoping he would use his medical expertise & clinical experience to make his case to all National Authorities!
Peace & love for all...heck, I don't practice medicine for the money! Thanks! :)
[QUOTE=lnt1103;217502]Just let fassol go, Sera. Don't waste your time and energy-God knows you've got more than enough (more important) pursuits to spend them on. From what I've seen, your information is quality and well intentioned while he likes to argue and belittle because it makes him feel more important than he is.[/QUOTE]
I wish we could get someone who was supremely uninterested in circumcision to analyse the level of argument presented by both side, with points awarded for logical argument, and deducted for personal attacks. I know it's all subjective, but I happen to believe that the level of debate from the anti-circers has been considerably higher. Anyway, that's arguing about the level of debate rather than the issues.
Having seen some of the previous threads, Sera and Brandye seem to have been able to shout down anyone expressing anti-circ thoughts in the past, but I feel that there is a very strong case against circumcision that should be heard.
[QUOTE=sera300;217424]Cycle: I am not emotional over it; I believe in choice. However, in the US medical practice is left for the parent to choose. [/QUOTE]
Like we pointed out before, it's the child's body, and he does not get to choose. We don't present parents with information on the arguments for and against removing a girl's labia and then let them make the choice (not in most countries that is). Boys should have the same protection.
[QUOTE=sera300;217505]Good thought! I was hoping he would use his medical expertise & clinical experience to make his case to all National Authorities![/QUOTE]
You are not the only person with medical expertise and clinical experience. As I keep pointing out, the medical organisations in the USA, Canada, the UK, and Australia are already all either neutral on circumcision, or say that it is not recommended. Please stop dismissing people because you regard them as unqualified. There are circumcised men with more medical qualifications than you who are against circumcision:
[quote=ml66uk;217529]I wish we could get someone who was supremely uninterested in circumcision to analyse the level of argument presented by both side, with points awarded for logical argument, and deducted for personal attacks. I know it's all subjective, but I happen to believe that the level of debate from the anti-circers has been considerably higher. Anyway, that's arguing about the level of debate rather than the issues.
Having seen some of the previous threads, Sera and Brandye seem to have been able to shout down anyone expressing anti-circ thoughts in the past, but I feel that there is a very strong case against circumcision that should be heard.
You are not the only person with medical expertise and clinical experience. As I keep pointing out, the medical organisations in the USA, Canada, the UK, and Australia are already all either neutral on circumcision, or say that it is not recommended. Please stop dismissing people because you regard them as unqualified. There are circumcised men with more medical qualifications than you who are against circumcision:
I believe people should draw upon their own experience in clinical practice. Not from Authorities. You fail to understand this & what informed parental consent is. As I said, I am happy to ask a few Urologist to log in--men. You fail to see what I have stated...In the US it's parental choice...not mine.
[QUOTE=sera300;217531]I believe people should draw upon their own experience in clinical practice. Not from Authorities. You fail to understand this & what informed parental consent is. As I said, I am happy to ask a few Urologist to log in--men. You fail to see what I have stated...In the US it's parental choice...not mine.[/QUOTE]
Just adding my 2 cents here because this seems to be a big topic the past few weeks and I know a little about it myself.
There was some pretty heated attacks going on regarding this issue so lets put that behind and try to focus only on the issues. I think there is a failure to communicate on your part Sera. I know this comes across as a bias due to the position I hold on the matter, but I don't feel you quite understand the "other side" as you seem to continue to repeat yourself even when your argument is refuted. So let's put emotion aside and look at only the facts. Let's also not discuss medical qualifications because they are irrelevant to the debate.
The problem is that the very large majority of practicing physicians don't recognize circumcision as being medically beneficial by any means. Including any benefits to women. And as far as sex is concerned, it has great potential to drastically reduce sexual pleasure (for both sexes). This has been researched and documented.
Also, it must be recognized that circumcision in the United States was started in order to discourage little boys from touching themselves and masturbating. Which is highly ironic then that the two medically trained board members on a sexually educating and liberal website, are highly supportive of such a procedure when it can't be concluded at this time that it has any benefits medically and that it is sexually harmful.
The problem is then one of a human rights issue that parents can do such a thing to a newborn simply on a whim. There are no other parts of the body that parents are allowed to cut off or mutilate on the same whim. I agree with ml66uk, and think that this procedure is not necessary at the neonatal stage and should be illegal to perform without the patients (the boy actually being circumcised) consent.
Looking back on history we know that the proper way of dealing with all social setbacks has always been education. If indeed the foreskin is clinically proved to greatly increase risk of diseases, it is still not an issue until the boy becomes sexually active at a later age in life. So instead of cutting them without consent of the patient when they are infants, they should be educated on cleansing and proper maintenance. Lets face it, I doubt any little boy is going to say no to being given permission to play with himself in the bathroom.
So what we are actually talking about here is a violation of basic human rights to ones own body. Any problems that may ever arise due to foreskin, can always be dealt with later when the boy is old enough to consent to such a procedure.
[QUOTE=CleverName;217634]Even if it did not have a medical benefit, it is still a medical issue.
Are you saying when they cut open your chest for breast implants its not a medical procedure?
Doctors have experiance, and I say with experiance comes knowledge. If you think knowledge is irrelevant... then I do not know what to say.[/QUOTE]
You saying that you need experience as a practicing physician to debate the human rights violation of neonatal circumcision (because it's not based not on the patients consent), is like me saying that you need to be a mechanic in order to debate paying $4000 for your oil changes.
Your argument is a two fold logical fallacy. First you appeal to authority, then you red herring by making a statement as though I'm claiming all knowledge is irrelevant.
Please focus on the issue if you wish to contribute. Otherwise just sit back and read.
[quote=pozzolane;217613]It makes no sense, because the rub is that we are not talking about medical treatment. Because, every medical authority doesn't recognize circumcision as a therapeutic procedure. This is due to the fact that there is insufficient evidence to support it as such.
Ie: There are statistics suggesting it may be possible but absolutely no clinical proof to support the statistics.
Furthermore, for the problems it has been said to help, there are better and more effective (in lots of cases non-surgical) ways to treat.[/quote]
Even if it did not have a medical benefit, it is still a medical issue.
Are you saying when they cut open your chest for breast implants its not a medical procedure?
Doctors have experiance, and I say with experiance comes knowledge. If you think knowledge is irrelevant... then I do not know what to say.
[QUOTE=CleverName;217583]I think when you are talking about medical treatment, having a medical backround may be relevant... not needed... but relevant.
Or does that make no sense?[/QUOTE]
It makes no sense, because the rub is that we are not talking about medical treatment. Because, every medical authority doesn't recognize circumcision as a therapeutic procedure. This is due to the fact that there is insufficient evidence to support it as such.
Ie: There are statistics suggesting it may be possible but absolutely no clinical proof to support the statistics.
Furthermore, for the problems it has been said to help, there are better and more effective (in lots of cases non-surgical) ways to treat.
I let this thread go for a few days, thinking it had died. Pity.[QUOTE=sera300;217472]How can you doubt medical expertise when you hold no medical background!!!! LOL![/QUOTE]Very easily. Doctors are human. The very fact that we need the words "iatrogenic" and "nosocomial" suggests that we should not let doctors become little tin gods or hospitals, temples. Medicine is not magic. Knowledge about it is readily available to ordinary mortals.
But as we have repeatedly said here, genital reduction surgery of healthy neonates (male or female) is not medicine (it treats no symptoms, it cures no diseases), and anyone is free to debate it in non-medical terms.
To SERA300
Enjoyed reading all the posts! Just curious as to how you found the time to obtain so much schooling. I counted what appeared to be 3-4 BS degrees, 2 MS degrees (One as a NP), working toward a PH.D, and an MD degree. I assume you completed a residency which lasts 3+ years. Where do you find the time to breath much less work in the medical profession and continue full time studies in a doctoral program. How old are you???
I'm approaching 38 and it took 7 years to get a dual BS in biology and chemistry, 4 years of medical school and 5 years to complete my residency and I have only entered private practice 4 years ago!
I agree that medicine isn't magic, but there is definitely a science and an art behind it. I'm glad that becoming a physician isn't as easy as looking online and treating one self. If that were the case most of you wouldn't be around very long! Interesting debate on circumcision...but it is a debate that will never end and has flipped back and forth since i started my education and training. I won't post my thoughts regarding the topic as it doesn't matter what I think. I have performed the procedure almost 300 times as part of my residency training while on both the pediatrics and obstetrics service. I witnessed probably 60% of parents elect to have the procedure performed on their children but it has always been their decesion and all we do is provide the facts, risks, and benefits to the procedure. I never injected my own thought or personal preference regarding the issue.
One, they don't cut open your chest for a breast reduction or enlargement. They cut open your chest to do open heart surgery, I have that scar. Most women that have had procedures done to the breast you would never know.
I know my brothers were circumcised, I think most if not all little boys were back in the 50 and 60's when they were born. And they don't remember a thing.
I just always saw it as something that was done so that the penis was easier to clean, and to keep clean. I actually don't think I have seen one that wasn't. It's the norm, at least where I am from.
I do not see the big deal in the whole debate.
[quote=RAM MD;220381]To SERA300
Enjoyed reading all the posts! Just curious as to how you found the time to obtain so much schooling. I counted what appeared to be 3-4 BS degrees, 2 MS degrees (One as a NP), working toward a PH.D, and an MD degree. I assume you completed a residency which lasts 3+ years. Where do you find the time to breath much less work in the medical profession and continue full time studies in a doctoral program. How old are you???
I'm approaching 38 and it took 7 years to get a dual BS in biology and chemistry, 4 years of medical school and 5 years to complete my residency and I have only entered private practice 4 years ago![/quote] No med school for me!; practice as a NP and started college young, always worked towards obtaining another in the interim, and have continued to date. One MS was an accelerated program.
Recently the laws in my state have changed for NP's. Hospitals have abided by them & much more autonomy is allowed. If you are in private practice you are establishing your reputation, earning an income to keep your lifestyle, and perhaps pay off Med School. Fortunately, I was established began as a RN when I was about 20 and kept going. I was very good at Trauma & Cardiac, worked with the best and was respected by the docs. They taught me much which made life easier through a BSN, NP and the clinical hours. Taught for a while as an instructor at a local college in between; ACLS, PALS, PHTLS, TNCC, CEN, while a RN was certified as SANE, again learned a great deal through NP school due to my background, and had worked a high end Shock/Trauma unit. Was married at the time; he was in Undergrad & then Law School, no kids, so I continued & worked 12's since he was not home much. The MS in Public Admin. was finished as the most recent & working towards the PhD. NO MED SCHOOL FOR ME--TOO OLD! I prefer to take call if one of the docs in FP wants off or 'play' in walk in emergency care centers. You MD's did it early on in life, not to be attempted at 43 y/o. If I was younger looking back, I wish I had. Hold one AAS, 1 dual B.S, 1 B.S. with major & strong minor (3 total), 2 M.S., working on the PhD. Began college early.
Hugh The thread did not die...I was stuck as in a patient in the hospital & had sx done Tuesday. Pretty damned sick.
My wife is a CCU RN and I admire your path in life. To be honest i actually applied to nursing school while I was working on my undergraduate degree and didn't get accepted. Applied to medical school and was accepted a 6 schools and waitlisted at 2 more.
If you read any of my posts elsewhere, it was never my intention to beat up on some of the others who post on this forum ( specifically Brandye). As I said in some of the other posts, I've never been good at turning the other cheek. When I got bashed i took offense to it and wanted to attack them back. I found some of the posts discussed with regard to prostatitis and went over the edge and for that I'm sorry. I have never in my career attempted to discredit the advice of a colleague and unfortunately I should have not started here. Once again I apologize to Brandye for this. I know she has alot more insight to certain medical topics than I and I'm sure the opposite is also true. As I said before, given the situation I do not intend to provide any more medical information on this forum and my current responses are directed toward apologizing to others and defending myself against the few jokers that surf on this site.
[quote=RAM MD;220396]My wife is a CCU RN and I admire your path in life. To be honest i actually applied to nursing school while I was working on my undergraduate degree and didn't get accepted. Applied to medical school and was accepted a 6 schools and waitlisted at 2 more.
If you read any of my posts elsewhere, it was never my intention to beat up on some of the others who post on this forum ( specifically Brandye). As I said in some of the other posts, I've never been good at turning the other cheek. When I got bashed i took offense to it and wanted to attack them back. I found some of the posts discussed with regard to prostatitis and went over the edge and for that I'm sorry. I have never in my career attempted to discredit the advice of a colleague and unfortunately I should have not started here. Once again I apologize to Brandye for this. I know she has alot more insight to certain medical topics than I and I'm sure the opposite is also true. As I said before, given the situation I do not intend to provide any more medical information on this forum and my current responses are directed toward apologizing to others and defending myself against the few jokers that surf on this site.[/quote]
As you can see, many have posted for a long period of time. I often sound harsh when I write, often considered "sterile" which was drummed into my head while working on M. Public Administration Degree. One Professor used to catch me on papers; "state your position, defend it, and do not apologize for your opinion". As you are aware, much different from medical practice where you outline outcomes, explain for patient understanding without judgement, and on their level of understanding. Was a big change for me.
I think since many begin posting, all tend to scrutinize since many are younger or did not explain enough for anyone to properly answer. Grammar and no text is encouraged. When many complain [I know I make enough errors of my own], I tell them it shall help later in life to convey your intent.
I love Emergency Medicine, find myself now drifting into the Administrative thoughts & employing the use of the new degree. However, it [ER] remains in my blood! Brandye has a good [interesting] Medical background & it's not Gyn.
Hang around...the board can always use info. If I cross the line on a random post where a poster states they have a emergency problem...I always just put not a substitute for medical opinions or care. Sometimes late at night someone [a poster] panics over something medical, if I am on-line, and no one is around I answer since the time changes vary.
Additionally, often new posters sign on and put up a facade with false pretenses so many tend to read people who have a stance. One girl had some postings very odd--it was "interesting" to be polite. Part of the difficulty w/technology & Internet; interpretations are subjective to the reader and not always the intent of the reader--it became dilute or misinterpreted.
Good to see your wife is a nurse--CCU! I used to work Per Diem in another hospital for experience in CCU/ICU when I first became a nurse--I wanted to learn all there was! The Docs while I was in the ER; when surgeons [etc.] came through or the ER Md's, if they knew you wanted to learn they taught. I decided to go on to be a NP the day the ER Doc trusted me to clear a c-spine and handle a MST since he took the one which was "crashing". It was time!
You are better off having gone off to Med School v. Nursing!
[quote=Hugh7;217702]I let this thread go for a few days, thinking it had died. Pity.Very easily. Doctors are human. The very fact that we need the words "iatrogenic" and "nosocomial" suggests that we should not let doctors become little tin gods or hospitals, temples. Medicine is not magic. Knowledge about it is readily available to ordinary mortals.
But as we have repeatedly said here, genital reduction surgery of healthy neonates (male or female) is not medicine (it treats no symptoms, it cures no diseases), and anyone is free to debate it in non-medical terms.[/quote]
Hugh...Medical expertise is gained through medical practice and medical experience. The practice of any provider will change over years and gaining knowledge. Doctors and all are human beings yet are forced to work in the terms of "Man as a Machine" in the US. Hospital acquired infections are the number one reason I discourage admission unless it is absolutely necessary. These are not always carried by staff; often other patients or visitors. I believe if you go in healthy you are at a good risk of "catching" something unwanted while in. No one said/implied they are God's, etc. Knowledge is available to many; however, correct interpretation for one not trained in the field is a hazard in itself.
Regarding the circumcision portion; they are performed in the US as RAM stated. As another poster stated the numbers are declining. Your last statement about not being a medical necessity for neonates has validity. However it's still parental consent. Similarly, infants/children are exposed to cigarette smoke. Second hand smoking is an issue with long term health hazard's and asthma which can lead to death or lung cancer. The government does not ban smoking to protect the child's health.
I believe the issue falls within the posed question; "What is the US government willing to enforce/ban?". Secondary, is the next step; "Assuming Governmental intervention is employed in the US, what other restrictions will be imposed [and where does the line blur regarding any Governmental imposed bans]?" Look how far the current administration has gone with imposing on all in the US and forcing his [President Bush] beliefs upon the world [as he believes...for their own good]. How does one define such blurred lines? Ban circumcision and smoking? See the issues I am pointing out? There are always special interest groups; which ones get their wishes and is it equitable to all special interest groups? I believe the matter is one of bureaucracy & the red tape associated with legislating such changes.
[quote=pharoh_13;222422]If you have a circumsion will it affect or improve your penis for when u have sex ?
Email me at [/quote]
Please read the links. I find it interesting you wish people to send you private emails so you can discuss your penis. I doubt many will fall for this tactic.
[quote=Brandye;216830]Ron,
It is a shame that your original thread was ghijacked by some net guerrillas pushing their view. You seem to have gotten your answer - and then some.
I appreciate your comment about who was misleading. It is interesting that we had two circumcision threads in two days with three newbies descending upon us with anit- ideas. Vikingirl signed in and then immediately posted only on a circumcision thread. Unusual that a woman would find that as a place to start.
Good luck.[/quote]
I thought about the same; the first place to begin a thread as a female. LOL!
Same, Good luck Ray--sorry I gave you the link though to the pics! LOL! :)
[QUOTE=Brandye;216830]It is a shame that your original thread was ghijacked by some net guerrillas pushing their view.[/QUOTE]The fallacy of Argument ad hominem (attacking the person instead of their argument). What's a net guerrilla? Is sexinfo101 some kind of exclusive club for some special kind of people? (It seems to be a place where one or two self-appointed experts lay down dogma from on high. That may have some validity in some particular places where sex intersects medicine, but circumcision is a special case: having the parts in question may make a person better informed than living in an environment devoted to cutting them off.)
I haven't actually seen anything of substance in support of circumcision here. Only references to news items referring to original papers that I have read and found the flaws in (and a lot of personal attacks). For example, you both seem to have a particular thing about cervical cancer, for an obvious reason, but would you care to provide some references for your claim that circumcision prevents cervical cancer, and by how much. (I've read the Castellsagué paper and it's rubbish. I show why here.) The "how much" is important because it can give us an idea of the Number Needed to Treat and hence the risk-benefit ratio. Circumcision is neither cost-free nor risk-free. "Circumcision prevents X, therefore circumcise then all" is not good enough.
[QUOTE=Brandye;216830]Ron,
It is a shame that your original thread was ghijacked by some net guerrillas pushing their view. You seem to have gotten your answer - and then some.
I appreciate your comment about who was misleading. It is interesting that we had two circumcision threads in two days with three newbies descending upon us with anit- ideas. Vikingirl signed in and then immediately posted only on a circumcision thread. Unusual that a woman would find that as a place to start.
Good luck.[/QUOTE]Despite the fact the exchanges have gotten heated at times I don't think the thread was "hijacked", unless having a strong opinion on this subject counts as such. Yes, lots of first time or newer posters, but so what? For the most part it's stayed on topic and shared valuable links, whether you agree with the conclusions or not. Would you have felt they were "net guerrillas " if they had a pro-circ position similar to yours? I could have done without the personal digs and snide remarks from both sides, though.
Unless I've missed the point of this board attracting new contributors with something to say is how it's going to remain healthy (or at least interesting). Traffic here has been mighty slow the last few months anyway . . . hopefully it'll pick up in other areas rather than just this subject.
And yes Ron, good luck whatever your decision. I'm sure you got much, much more than you bargained for! :D
DVD: I Sent you a PM...
[QUOTE=Brandye;216830]Ron,
It is a shame that your original thread was ghijacked by some net guerrillas pushing their view. You seem to have gotten your answer - and then some.
I appreciate your comment about who was misleading. It is interesting that we had two circumcision threads in two days with three newbies descending upon us with anit- ideas. Vikingirl signed in and then immediately posted only on a circumcision thread. Unusual that a woman would find that as a place to start.
Good luck.[/QUOTE]
I've posted in another “circ thread” my thoughts regarding this issue, but I will state again my opinion of the very disconcerting attitude towards the sexual health of men that the "medical professionals" (ie: Brandye and Sera) whom post on this board have. It is incredibly biased, unprofessional, and emotive.
For those whom consider their views “scientific”, it’s a wonder why they only source certain articles that get debunked by other more recent articles. They clearly also show no sense about how rational discourse and debate is done. They post their points of view and then ignore the rational arguments which point out the flaws in their own, and then immediately resort to personal attack and straw-man fallacies.
For someone with science backgrounds whom regards themselves in a high manner of medical trust, you two should be ashamed of yourselves for your behavior regarding this topic.
I will apologize only if Brandye can start citing sources for her pro-circ argument regarding cervical cancer in women. Ones that have not been debunked or shown flawed by other more recent or further in-depth studies. Brandye so far has failed to do such. Hugh et al. has showed their cards (ie: strong evidence and sound logic), where is yours??
BTW, I don’t have a medical background, but I do have a masters degree in engineering (and an awesome B.S. detector). I know how the science method and rational discourse works - maybe some here should brush up on it as well.
-F-
Fassol:
As I said you do not practice medicine. Nor do you have a background in it. I do as does Brandye. Get over yourself until you hold office hours or work in an ER. Big deal an Master's in engineering...I hold several Master's as well. What is your point? How many patents do YOU hold?
Frankly your ideas/posts appear idiotic to the medical profession--you are just disgracing your self.
Well of course people get emotional about it. Emotion IS reality. It really angers me to hear people glibly say that males should be circumcised as a matter of course. If a person makes an informed decision to get themselves circumsized, then fine, that is their decision. However, I am firmly of the opinion that it should never be inflicted involuntarily on a child. Just because sera and Brandye practice medicine does not give them the last word on the subject, or any special authority for that matter. The issue of circumcision is more than a purely technical medical decision.
[quote=cyclefreak;217417]Well of course people get emotional about it. Emotion IS reality. It really angers me to hear people glibly say that males should be circumcised as a matter of course. If a person makes an informed decision to get themselves circumsized, then fine, that is their decision. However, I am firmly of the opinion that it should never be inflicted involuntarily on a child. Just because sera and Brandye practice medicine does not give them the last word on the subject, or any special authority for that matter. The issue of circumcision is more than a purely technical medical decision.[/quote] Cycle: I am not emotional over it; I believe in choice. However, in the US medical practice is left for the parent to choose. It's a system which is not changed through medical professionals since the elective option is placed upon the parent, no one forces the parent to make any choice. What is presented to a parent by gyn & peds is the pro/con of having such done. If I had a son, I am not certain which way I would go.
The one major issue I do have is if we in the US cannot teach proper STD protection & proper sex education; how do you inform a teen male as to their choice and are they capable of making a good choice pro/con when they cannot even discuss their own sexuality with a parent? When they are sexually active many men & women allow condoms to fall by the wayside. At that time the exposure is already in existence. Hence, spreading disease has begun.
I honestly believe many parents have to get off their abstinence stance and look at the reality of life. Similar to years ago, the worse outcome was your child/teen became pregnant, now the risks [diseases] are the worse outcome. Greatest fear is a teen becoming infected with HIV due to lack of knowledge.
The system presents options...we do not force them. I discussed much of this when my family member was going to have a male son. For a reason, it's ingrained in the male mind, "this should be done", whereas, my sister-in-law was more open to waiting.
Proper sex education and access to BC is what is needed in the US. Parents need to wake up since "hiding their head in the sand" regarding their teens sexuality may cost the teen their life due to parental ignorance.
Changing the system is done through lobbying on issues & Bush and his abstinence policy is ludicrous.
Actually, sera, I agree with what you just said.
[QUOTE=sera300;217416]Fassol:
As I said you do not practice medicine. Nor do you have a background in it. I do as does Brandye. Get over yourself until you hold office hours or work in an ER. Big deal an Master's in engineering...I hold several Master's as well. What is your point? How many patents do YOU hold?
Frankly your ideas/posts appear idiotic to the medical profession--you are just disgracing your self.[/QUOTE]
Obviously you don't hold a masters in debate, otherwise you would understand that your entire argument is based around an appeal to authority.
Please Read
Just because we don't hold a medical degree (or don't claim to) does not mean our arguments are not valid ones. Arguments which, you cannot seem to counter using sound logic and avoid resorting to insults and personal attacks.
Please Read
My point was clear that the arguments that Hugh et al. bring up have yet been addressed. You resort to personal attack and appeal to authority and Brandye also used personal attack and red herring.
Please address our argument directly. If you cannot then you lose the argument regardless of the degrees any of us hold.
Furthermore, you are only discrediting yourself and "disgracing" yourself when you make claims such as; my "idea's are idiotic to the medical profession" [sic]. Since when? Hugh has brought up a huge list of medical associations all over the world that agree with my side of the debate. I can even name one off the top of my head: D.O.C (Doctors Opposing Circumcision).
EDIT: Also, please read this link!
Fassol:
Debate? Yes, a Master's of Public Administration & Public Policy--currently working to complete a PhD in the same focus on Policy Reform & Health care.
Also, Hold MSN, NP, BS in Nursing, BS in dual Business & Paralegal...MSN was in research. Teach in Undergrad & Grad level of Poli. Sci. With a strong degrees & background in Advanced Des. Structures, Math, & comp. Sci.
Additionally published in Peer Reviewed Scholarly Reviews. National Member as well in the US. Personal attacks; no, correcting the "US system" which seems unfamiliar to you; hold your criticism for a person who cares; after you practice Medicine and see the infections & diseases. Perhaps you need to be taught about disease modes of transmission.
[QUOTE=sera300;217440]Fassol:
Debate? Yes, a Master's of Public Administration & Public Policy--currently working to complete a PhD in the same focus on Policy Reform & Health care.
Also, Hold MSN, NP, BS in Nursing, BS in dual Business & Paralegal...MSN was in research. Teach in Undergrad & Grad level of Poli. Sci. With a strong degrees & background in Advanced Des. Structures, Math, & comp. Sci.
Additionally published in Peer Reviewed Scholarly Reviews. National Member as well in the US. Personal attacks; no, correcting the "US system" which seems unfamiliar to you; hold your criticism for a person who cares; after you practice Medicine and see the infections & diseases. Perhaps you need to be taught about disease modes of transmission.[/QUOTE]
I smell a huge pile of B.S.
Regardless, you could hold a thousand more degrees and it still doesn't change the fact that you have clearly lost the debate. Since you refuse to refute our arguments point by point, and insist on your logical fallacies. Of which, I have tried to get you to see with the links I posted.
[quote=fassol;217442]I smell a huge pile of B.S.
Regardless, you could hold a thousand more degrees and it still doesn't change the fact that you have clearly lost the debate. Since you refuse to refute our arguments point by point, and insist on your logical fallacies. Of which, I have tried to get you to see with the links I posted.[/quote] The B.S you smell is your own, check you anus for the smell. Refute Your debates, plural? No do need to. Face it there is a standard in the US & it is abide by...like it or not.
When men learn to wash well & use condoms--Life may change.
Your frankly not worth my time or anyone else's since you cannot debate your way out of a paper bag & your info is useless. Anyone can create a cause with a website to support such. Read your links? Why since it does not have any value to me. And it's spelled CIRCUMCISION.
I can understand Cyclefreak & DVD--yet you, et al. sound like a group of idiots attempting to begin a grassroots movement & lack any such power. The best attempts you can do is go on a sex board and spew a group of political views v. answer the OP's question...you as the other which have just appeared, are dismissed. Not worth mine or Brandye's time.
Yes, Amazon anyone can get a book published BTW. I am happy to hand over my degrees & work to the moderators of this site; they will be able to validate me. Now, get your publications is a peer reviewed scholarly publication--not just among citing a book which anyone can sponsor. Meaning, I enjoy EEK writing & I am happy to get her published among S&S or any other Publishing company.
Since Hugh7 (Hugh Young) vanished. Little research & same terminology--he's of questionable character & appears to be one of many "alias" on this site. I suggest he stop asking for donations for his lifestyle...don't realize what I mean, do some research...LOL!
Since you are an Engineer, in what area since there are many and how many patents do you personally hold???? Or do you need a PhD for that? LOL!
[QUOTE=sera300;217443]
The B.S you smell is your own, check you anus for the smell. Refute Your debates, plural? No do need to. Face it there is a standard in the US & it is abide by...like it or not.
[COLOR="Magenta">Wow...Just because there is a standard does not mean it's right. There used to be standards/laws for treatment of African Americans as slaves. It used to be legal to beat your wife. At one point many eons ago, it used to be legal to sell children into slave trading.
[/COLOR]
When men learn to wash well & use condoms--Life may change.
[COLOR="Magenta">This is the most sexist comment I have ever heard coming from a self proclaimed trusted medical professional. You should be ashamed of yourself[/COLOR].
Your frankly not worth my time or anyone else's since you cannot debate your way out of a paper bag & your info is useless. Anyone can create a cause with a website to support such. Read your links? Why since it does not have any value to me. And it's spelled CIRCUMCISION.
[COLOR="Magenta">
Sorry for my spelling mistake. It's a wonder to me that you point that one out yet you refuse to correct your own plethora of grammatical errors and spelling mistakes. Aside from that, what power was given to you to decide that my argument and "info" is "useless", and that I cannot "argue my way out of a paper bag" [sic]?[/COLOR]
I can understand Cyclefreak & DVD--yet you, et al. sound like a group of idiots attempting to begin a grassroots movement & lack any such power. The best attempts you can do is go on a sex board and spew a group of political views v. answer the OP's question...you as the other which have just appeared, are dismissed. Not worth mine or Brandye's time.
[COLOR="Magenta">AD HOMINEM[/COLOR]
Yes, Amazon anyone can get a book published BTW. I am happy to hand over my degrees & work to the moderators of this site; they will be able to validate me. Now, get your publications is a peer reviewed scholarly publication--not just among citing a book which anyone can sponsor. Meaning, I enjoy EEK writing & I am happy to get her published among S&S or any other Publishing company.
[COLOR="Magenta">WTF???!!!!! What relevance does this have to the discussion please?[/COLOR]
Since Hugh7 (Hugh Young) vanished. Little research & same terminology--he's of questionable character & appears to be one of many "alias" on this site. I suggest he stop asking for donations for his lifestyle...don't realize what I mean, do some research...LOL!
[COLOR="Magenta">
Ad Hominem[/COLOR]
Since you are an Engineer, in what area since there are many and how many patents do you personally hold???? Or do you need a PhD for that? LOL!
[COLOR="Magenta">
I'm a geotechnical/environmental engineer. And here is where you strip all credibility from yourself. Why in Zues would you ask me for my patents????? Engineers don't have to hold patents. Like medicine, engineers have licenses to practice engineering consulting or work for industry. In either, in order to sign/stamp your own work, you need a professional engineering designation. Please explain why you want to know how many patents I hold? Or, to what relevance this is to this discussion. I brought it up to make you look foolish and you have only managed to increase this effect. [/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]
I think that this discussion is done. I seriously can't beleive someone with as much education as you claim to have, can be so willfully ignorant and plain stupid. And what a waste too. I was really impressed with your advice regarding other topics and issues, but your attitude here leaves your credibility with me severely tainted.
Face it you should be ashamed of your self! Yes, dear, Engineers have patents, LOL! Wake up...I know one well with 63!
You have no logic. Keep spreading STD's...have fun with it!:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=sera300;217456]Face it you should be ashamed of your self!
[COLOR="Magenta">For what pray tell?[/COLOR]
Yes, dear, Engineers have patents, LOL! Wake up...I know one well with 63!
[COLOR="Magenta">
ANYONE may hold a patent. Just because you have invented a small trinklet or do-dad, doesn't make you an engineer. A P.Eng. designation which is an earned designation after a 4 year B.Eng. from a credited university and 4 years of a recognized E.I.T status from the provincial/state engineering board; earns you your engineering status. Again, what relevance does this have to this discussion of circumcision? You are the one that brought up education!!
[/COLOR]
You have no logic. Keep spreading STD's...have fun with it!:rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
I think it's pretty clear here who is being the bigger person. Keep the insults coming, because it is only evidence for our case that routine circumcision has no scientific or medically grounded reason in neonates. And therefore, it should NOT be up to the parents discretion to simply cut it off on a whim. If it is ever decided to be done for therapeutic reasons it should be decided on by the person going to be cut and recommended by a physician with no prejudice either way. Not the parents or a doctor or anyone else!! This is the way it should be and this is the where it is moving. However, you and Brandye disagree. Why?? You have yet to make a sound and logical case. And frankly I'm beginning to doubt both of your self proclaimed medical expertise. Especially since you both refuse to acknowledge the scientific studies presented by us and have nothing but emotive arguments which give the impression that you do not understand the entire issue. Your behavior is in a manner which is completely opposite that one would expect a professional to act regarding their area of expertise. It is absolutely revolting.
[quote=fassol;217458]I think it's pretty clear here who is being the bigger person. Keep the insults coming, because it is only evidence for our case that routine circumcision has no scientific or medically grounded reason in neonates. And therefore, it should NOT be up to the parents discretion to simply cut it off on a whim. If it is ever decided to be done for therapeutic reasons it should be decided on by the person going to be cut and recommended by a physician with no prejudice either way. Not the parents or a doctor or anyone else!! This is the way it should be and this is the where it is moving. However, you and Brandye disagree. Why?? You have yet to make a sound and logical case. And frankly I'm beginning to doubt both of your self proclaimed medical expertise. Especially since you both refuse to acknowledge the scientific studies presented by us and have nothing but emotive arguments which give the impression that you do not understand the entire issue. Your behavior is in a manner which is completely opposite that one would expect a professional to act regarding their area of expertise. It is absolutely revolting.[/quote]
Yes, it's clear who is the better off person--myself and not you! Cannot stand a bit of criticism from women? Have some issue with them? Sure sounds as if you are a female hater! Despise authority as well. Go to another country where you get the medical care YOU wish...pretty simple is it not?
Engineers hold many patents...ever hear of semi-con? Also know a few Environmental Engineers with a PhD who hold patents.
In the US it's parental choice...like it or not. How can you doubt medical expertise when you hold no medical background!!!! LOL! You are a laugh and a half! Expertise form Us? Sorry I follow medical standards & not those issued by an environmental engineer. Obviously you have no understanding of Medical practice. Other than your phallic obsession!
If you do not care for the NHS & the US standard; testify before the Congressional Committee. Don't care for my or Brandye's Medical expertise; tough & move where practice is different. Better yet; I'll submit my credentials to the Mods on the site and you can have my license revoked!
Best read about the "Balk/Calista" Model and the DHS!
[QUOTE=sera300;217472]Yes, it's clear who is the better off person--myself and not you! Cannot stand a bit of criticism from women? Have some issue with them? Sure sounds as if you are a female hater! [COLOR="Magenta">(and now I'm a female hater)[/COLOR] Despise authority as well. Go to another country where you get the medical care YOU wish...pretty simple is it not?
Engineers hold many patents...ever hear of semi-con? Also know a few Environmental Engineers with a PhD who hold patents. [COLOR="Magenta">(again, relevance? Also, I know hundreds that don't. Patents are not indicitive of the engineering profession nor are they a requirement.)[/COLOR]
In the US it's parental choice...like it or not. How can you doubt medical expertise when you hold no medical background!!!! [COLOR="Magenta">(Appeal to authority)[/COLOR] LOL! [COLOR="Magenta">(<---Nice touch) [/COLOR]You are a laugh and a half! Expertise form Us? Sorry I follow medical standards & not those issued by an environmental engineer. Obviously you have no understanding of Medical practice. Other than your phallic obsession!
If you do not care for the NHS & the US standard; testify before the Congressional Committee. Don't care for my or Brandye's Medical expertise; tough & move where practice is different. Better yet; I'll submit my credentials to the Mods on the site and you can have my license revoked!
Best read about the "Balk/Calista" Model and the DHS![/QUOTE]
My only hope is that bright and eloquent people are reading this discourse that I am having with you. Apparently, to disagree with Sera and Brandye on sexinfo101.com means to have STD's and be women haters. Any other ad hominems while we're at it?
Your attitude is pitiful at best and disgraceful and intolerant at worst. The sheer ridiculousness and the obvious ignorance that you display in general (and especially towards my engineering profession) is shocking for someone who claims such a high level of authority through schooling.
[quote=fassol;217490]My only hope is that bright and eloquent people are reading this discourse that I am having with you. Apparently, to disagree with Sera and Brandye on sexinfo101.com means to have STD's and be women haters. Any other ad hominems while we're at it?
Your attitude is pitiful at best and disgraceful and intolerant at worst. The sheer ridiculousness and the obvious ignorance that you display in general (and especially towards my engineering profession) is shocking for someone who claims such a high level of authority through schooling.[/quote]
"Schooling"...no, Master moving to Scholar...I know a great deal about Environmental Engineering as well as other types of Engineers.
Yes, pick at women...great display of a man with no heart...LOL! As I continues to state; get into medical practice, then state your case. One of my LTR partners was an Environmental Engineer...he laughs at you! Like me to ask him to sign on? Even he has Patented technology & holds IP rights.
Know about semi-con? Look at the Patents held by one individual. Awesome. Patent the technology, implement it, cause it to work, and drive the ESC field since all others failed design & in implementation.
[QUOTE=sera300;217491]"Schooling"...no, Master moving to Scholar...I know a great deal about Environmental Engineering as well as other types of Engineers.
[COLOR="Magenta">
No you don't.[/COLOR]
Yes, pick at women...great display of a man with no heart...LOL!
[COLOR="Magenta">
Please show me where I have been misogynistic and I will apologize for rude behavior directed specifically to women. [/COLOR]
As I continues to state;
[COLOR="Magenta">Ouch. Your grammar is killing me. Please stop.[/COLOR]
get into medical practice, then state your case.
[COLOR="Magenta">...[/COLOR]
One of my LTR partners was an Environmental Engineer...he laughs at you! Like me to ask him to sign on? Even he has Patented technology & holds IP rights.
[COLOR="Magenta">
How hard is your head? I will state again, that patents ARE NOT A REQUIREMENT FOR THE ENGINEERING PROFESSION. NOR ARE THEY INDICATIVE OF THE PROFESSION!! IF YOUR BOYFRIEND LAUGHS, THEN HE IS AS STUPID AS YOU ARE AND SHOULD HAVE HIS PRIVLEDGES AS A PRACTICING ENGINEER REVOKED. AND I SAY AGAIN, WHAT RELEVANCE DOES THIS HAVE??
Was that clear enough for you?!?! [/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]
... (I snipped the rest as it was sheer non-sense and has no relevance to the real discussion of circumcision in neonates)...
[quote=fassol;217493]... (I snipped the rest as it was sheer non-sense and has no relevance to the real discussion of circumcision in neonates)...[/quote] I know nothing about Environmental Engineering...that's a laugh. You are about as dense as they come! yes, my former fiance is well renowned; his travel to other Country's and the schedule killed us.
Frankly, YOU are an idiot. Any moron can have a patent. However, in the industry, it's taking very seriously--as you are not.
AGAIN GO PRACTICE MEDICINE; GET YOUR DEGREE AND CLINICAL EXPERIENCE!
To the moderators may I post my full name, degrees, clinical experience, and scholarly articles??????
Yes, I am willing to post my family & the patents, IP, what/who they are, who is involved, and my former fiance (with their permission)?
I love it, individuals who have a theory & no medical practice!
As I said testify before the Congressional Committees if this is that significant to you! :rolleyes:
My point regarding circumcision has no bearing being an Environmental Engineer...perhaps you missed the point of Medical practice & clinical practice. You are merely acting on emotions! Too funny! Work in an ER, Trauma Unit [Shock Trauma] and use some political clout to change the NHS & US System!
As far as "grammar"; work long hours, get up in the middle of the night to save a life, teach, sit on a few BOD, build a structure or ten, be a philanthropist, and work on a PhD...you might be tired as well.
Thank you for your apology to women in general.
Just let fassol go, Sera. Don't waste your time and energy-God knows you've got more than enough (more important) pursuits to spend them on. From what I've seen, your information is quality and well intentioned while he likes to argue and belittle because it makes him feel more important than he is.
Promote Peace and LOVE.................the world will be a much better
place for us all.......
Int you have style.............
[quote=lnt1103;217502]Just let fassol go, Sera. Don't waste your time and energy-God knows you've got more than enough (more important) pursuits to spend them on. From what I've seen, your information is quality and well intentioned while he likes to argue and belittle because it makes him feel more important than he is.[/quote] Good thought! I was hoping he would use his medical expertise & clinical experience to make his case to all National Authorities!
Peace & love for all...heck, I don't practice medicine for the money! Thanks! :)
CL; you are correct as well--style!
[QUOTE=lnt1103;217502]Just let fassol go, Sera. Don't waste your time and energy-God knows you've got more than enough (more important) pursuits to spend them on. From what I've seen, your information is quality and well intentioned while he likes to argue and belittle because it makes him feel more important than he is.[/QUOTE]
I wish we could get someone who was supremely uninterested in circumcision to analyse the level of argument presented by both side, with points awarded for logical argument, and deducted for personal attacks. I know it's all subjective, but I happen to believe that the level of debate from the anti-circers has been considerably higher. Anyway, that's arguing about the level of debate rather than the issues.
Having seen some of the previous threads, Sera and Brandye seem to have been able to shout down anyone expressing anti-circ thoughts in the past, but I feel that there is a very strong case against circumcision that should be heard.
[QUOTE=sera300;217424]Cycle: I am not emotional over it; I believe in choice. However, in the US medical practice is left for the parent to choose. [/QUOTE]
Like we pointed out before, it's the child's body, and he does not get to choose. We don't present parents with information on the arguments for and against removing a girl's labia and then let them make the choice (not in most countries that is). Boys should have the same protection.
[QUOTE=sera300;217505]Good thought! I was hoping he would use his medical expertise & clinical experience to make his case to all National Authorities![/QUOTE]
You are not the only person with medical expertise and clinical experience. As I keep pointing out, the medical organisations in the USA, Canada, the UK, and Australia are already all either neutral on circumcision, or say that it is not recommended. Please stop dismissing people because you regard them as unqualified. There are circumcised men with more medical qualifications than you who are against circumcision:
Policy statements on circumcision of medical organisations
[quote=ml66uk;217529]I wish we could get someone who was supremely uninterested in circumcision to analyse the level of argument presented by both side, with points awarded for logical argument, and deducted for personal attacks. I know it's all subjective, but I happen to believe that the level of debate from the anti-circers has been considerably higher. Anyway, that's arguing about the level of debate rather than the issues.
Having seen some of the previous threads, Sera and Brandye seem to have been able to shout down anyone expressing anti-circ thoughts in the past, but I feel that there is a very strong case against circumcision that should be heard.
You are not the only person with medical expertise and clinical experience. As I keep pointing out, the medical organisations in the USA, Canada, the UK, and Australia are already all either neutral on circumcision, or say that it is not recommended. Please stop dismissing people because you regard them as unqualified. There are circumcised men with more medical qualifications than you who are against circumcision:
Policy statements on circumcision of medical organisations [/quote]
I believe people should draw upon their own experience in clinical practice. Not from Authorities. You fail to understand this & what informed parental consent is. As I said, I am happy to ask a few Urologist to log in--men. You fail to see what I have stated...In the US it's parental choice...not mine.
[QUOTE=sera300;217531]I believe people should draw upon their own experience in clinical practice. Not from Authorities. You fail to understand this & what informed parental consent is. As I said, I am happy to ask a few Urologist to log in--men. You fail to see what I have stated...In the US it's parental choice...not mine.[/QUOTE]
Just adding my 2 cents here because this seems to be a big topic the past few weeks and I know a little about it myself.
There was some pretty heated attacks going on regarding this issue so lets put that behind and try to focus only on the issues. I think there is a failure to communicate on your part Sera. I know this comes across as a bias due to the position I hold on the matter, but I don't feel you quite understand the "other side" as you seem to continue to repeat yourself even when your argument is refuted. So let's put emotion aside and look at only the facts. Let's also not discuss medical qualifications because they are irrelevant to the debate.
The problem is that the very large majority of practicing physicians don't recognize circumcision as being medically beneficial by any means. Including any benefits to women. And as far as sex is concerned, it has great potential to drastically reduce sexual pleasure (for both sexes). This has been researched and documented.
Also, it must be recognized that circumcision in the United States was started in order to discourage little boys from touching themselves and masturbating. Which is highly ironic then that the two medically trained board members on a sexually educating and liberal website, are highly supportive of such a procedure when it can't be concluded at this time that it has any benefits medically and that it is sexually harmful.
The problem is then one of a human rights issue that parents can do such a thing to a newborn simply on a whim. There are no other parts of the body that parents are allowed to cut off or mutilate on the same whim. I agree with ml66uk, and think that this procedure is not necessary at the neonatal stage and should be illegal to perform without the patients (the boy actually being circumcised) consent.
Looking back on history we know that the proper way of dealing with all social setbacks has always been education. If indeed the foreskin is clinically proved to greatly increase risk of diseases, it is still not an issue until the boy becomes sexually active at a later age in life. So instead of cutting them without consent of the patient when they are infants, they should be educated on cleansing and proper maintenance. Lets face it, I doubt any little boy is going to say no to being given permission to play with himself in the bathroom.
So what we are actually talking about here is a violation of basic human rights to ones own body. Any problems that may ever arise due to foreskin, can always be dealt with later when the boy is old enough to consent to such a procedure.
[quote=Hugh7;216755] My qualifications are irrelevant.[/quote]
I think when you are talking about medical treatment, having a medical backround may be relevant... not needed... but relevant.
Or does that make no sense?
[QUOTE=CleverName;217634]Even if it did not have a medical benefit, it is still a medical issue.
Are you saying when they cut open your chest for breast implants its not a medical procedure?
Doctors have experiance, and I say with experiance comes knowledge. If you think knowledge is irrelevant... then I do not know what to say.[/QUOTE]
You saying that you need experience as a practicing physician to debate the human rights violation of neonatal circumcision (because it's not based not on the patients consent), is like me saying that you need to be a mechanic in order to debate paying $4000 for your oil changes.
Your argument is a two fold logical fallacy. First you appeal to authority, then you red herring by making a statement as though I'm claiming all knowledge is irrelevant.
Please focus on the issue if you wish to contribute. Otherwise just sit back and read.
[quote=pozzolane;217613]It makes no sense, because the rub is that we are not talking about medical treatment. Because, every medical authority doesn't recognize circumcision as a therapeutic procedure. This is due to the fact that there is insufficient evidence to support it as such.
Ie: There are statistics suggesting it may be possible but absolutely no clinical proof to support the statistics.
Furthermore, for the problems it has been said to help, there are better and more effective (in lots of cases non-surgical) ways to treat.[/quote]
Even if it did not have a medical benefit, it is still a medical issue.
Are you saying when they cut open your chest for breast implants its not a medical procedure?
Doctors have experiance, and I say with experiance comes knowledge. If you think knowledge is irrelevant... then I do not know what to say.
[QUOTE=CleverName;217583]I think when you are talking about medical treatment, having a medical backround may be relevant... not needed... but relevant.
Or does that make no sense?[/QUOTE]
It makes no sense, because the rub is that we are not talking about medical treatment. Because, every medical authority doesn't recognize circumcision as a therapeutic procedure. This is due to the fact that there is insufficient evidence to support it as such.
Ie: There are statistics suggesting it may be possible but absolutely no clinical proof to support the statistics.
Furthermore, for the problems it has been said to help, there are better and more effective (in lots of cases non-surgical) ways to treat.
I let this thread go for a few days, thinking it had died. Pity.[QUOTE=sera300;217472]How can you doubt medical expertise when you hold no medical background!!!! LOL![/QUOTE]Very easily. Doctors are human. The very fact that we need the words "iatrogenic" and "nosocomial" suggests that we should not let doctors become little tin gods or hospitals, temples. Medicine is not magic. Knowledge about it is readily available to ordinary mortals.
But as we have repeatedly said here, genital reduction surgery of healthy neonates (male or female) is not medicine (it treats no symptoms, it cures no diseases), and anyone is free to debate it in non-medical terms.
To SERA300
Enjoyed reading all the posts! Just curious as to how you found the time to obtain so much schooling. I counted what appeared to be 3-4 BS degrees, 2 MS degrees (One as a NP), working toward a PH.D, and an MD degree. I assume you completed a residency which lasts 3+ years. Where do you find the time to breath much less work in the medical profession and continue full time studies in a doctoral program. How old are you???
I'm approaching 38 and it took 7 years to get a dual BS in biology and chemistry, 4 years of medical school and 5 years to complete my residency and I have only entered private practice 4 years ago!
I agree that medicine isn't magic, but there is definitely a science and an art behind it. I'm glad that becoming a physician isn't as easy as looking online and treating one self. If that were the case most of you wouldn't be around very long! Interesting debate on circumcision...but it is a debate that will never end and has flipped back and forth since i started my education and training. I won't post my thoughts regarding the topic as it doesn't matter what I think. I have performed the procedure almost 300 times as part of my residency training while on both the pediatrics and obstetrics service. I witnessed probably 60% of parents elect to have the procedure performed on their children but it has always been their decesion and all we do is provide the facts, risks, and benefits to the procedure. I never injected my own thought or personal preference regarding the issue.
One, they don't cut open your chest for a breast reduction or enlargement. They cut open your chest to do open heart surgery, I have that scar. Most women that have had procedures done to the breast you would never know.
I know my brothers were circumcised, I think most if not all little boys were back in the 50 and 60's when they were born. And they don't remember a thing.
I just always saw it as something that was done so that the penis was easier to clean, and to keep clean. I actually don't think I have seen one that wasn't. It's the norm, at least where I am from.
I do not see the big deal in the whole debate.
[quote=RAM MD;220381]To SERA300
Enjoyed reading all the posts! Just curious as to how you found the time to obtain so much schooling. I counted what appeared to be 3-4 BS degrees, 2 MS degrees (One as a NP), working toward a PH.D, and an MD degree. I assume you completed a residency which lasts 3+ years. Where do you find the time to breath much less work in the medical profession and continue full time studies in a doctoral program. How old are you???
I'm approaching 38 and it took 7 years to get a dual BS in biology and chemistry, 4 years of medical school and 5 years to complete my residency and I have only entered private practice 4 years ago![/quote] No med school for me!; practice as a NP and started college young, always worked towards obtaining another in the interim, and have continued to date. One MS was an accelerated program.
Recently the laws in my state have changed for NP's. Hospitals have abided by them & much more autonomy is allowed. If you are in private practice you are establishing your reputation, earning an income to keep your lifestyle, and perhaps pay off Med School. Fortunately, I was established began as a RN when I was about 20 and kept going. I was very good at Trauma & Cardiac, worked with the best and was respected by the docs. They taught me much which made life easier through a BSN, NP and the clinical hours. Taught for a while as an instructor at a local college in between; ACLS, PALS, PHTLS, TNCC, CEN, while a RN was certified as SANE, again learned a great deal through NP school due to my background, and had worked a high end Shock/Trauma unit. Was married at the time; he was in Undergrad & then Law School, no kids, so I continued & worked 12's since he was not home much. The MS in Public Admin. was finished as the most recent & working towards the PhD. NO MED SCHOOL FOR ME--TOO OLD! I prefer to take call if one of the docs in FP wants off or 'play' in walk in emergency care centers. You MD's did it early on in life, not to be attempted at 43 y/o. If I was younger looking back, I wish I had. Hold one AAS, 1 dual B.S, 1 B.S. with major & strong minor (3 total), 2 M.S., working on the PhD. Began college early.
Hugh The thread did not die...I was stuck as in a patient in the hospital & had sx done Tuesday. Pretty damned sick.
My wife is a CCU RN and I admire your path in life. To be honest i actually applied to nursing school while I was working on my undergraduate degree and didn't get accepted. Applied to medical school and was accepted a 6 schools and waitlisted at 2 more.
If you read any of my posts elsewhere, it was never my intention to beat up on some of the others who post on this forum ( specifically Brandye). As I said in some of the other posts, I've never been good at turning the other cheek. When I got bashed i took offense to it and wanted to attack them back. I found some of the posts discussed with regard to prostatitis and went over the edge and for that I'm sorry. I have never in my career attempted to discredit the advice of a colleague and unfortunately I should have not started here. Once again I apologize to Brandye for this. I know she has alot more insight to certain medical topics than I and I'm sure the opposite is also true. As I said before, given the situation I do not intend to provide any more medical information on this forum and my current responses are directed toward apologizing to others and defending myself against the few jokers that surf on this site.
[quote=RAM MD;220396]My wife is a CCU RN and I admire your path in life. To be honest i actually applied to nursing school while I was working on my undergraduate degree and didn't get accepted. Applied to medical school and was accepted a 6 schools and waitlisted at 2 more.
If you read any of my posts elsewhere, it was never my intention to beat up on some of the others who post on this forum ( specifically Brandye). As I said in some of the other posts, I've never been good at turning the other cheek. When I got bashed i took offense to it and wanted to attack them back. I found some of the posts discussed with regard to prostatitis and went over the edge and for that I'm sorry. I have never in my career attempted to discredit the advice of a colleague and unfortunately I should have not started here. Once again I apologize to Brandye for this. I know she has alot more insight to certain medical topics than I and I'm sure the opposite is also true. As I said before, given the situation I do not intend to provide any more medical information on this forum and my current responses are directed toward apologizing to others and defending myself against the few jokers that surf on this site.[/quote]
As you can see, many have posted for a long period of time. I often sound harsh when I write, often considered "sterile" which was drummed into my head while working on M. Public Administration Degree. One Professor used to catch me on papers; "state your position, defend it, and do not apologize for your opinion". As you are aware, much different from medical practice where you outline outcomes, explain for patient understanding without judgement, and on their level of understanding. Was a big change for me.
I think since many begin posting, all tend to scrutinize since many are younger or did not explain enough for anyone to properly answer. Grammar and no text is encouraged. When many complain [I know I make enough errors of my own], I tell them it shall help later in life to convey your intent.
I love Emergency Medicine, find myself now drifting into the Administrative thoughts & employing the use of the new degree. However, it [ER] remains in my blood! Brandye has a good [interesting] Medical background & it's not Gyn.
Hang around...the board can always use info. If I cross the line on a random post where a poster states they have a emergency problem...I always just put not a substitute for medical opinions or care. Sometimes late at night someone [a poster] panics over something medical, if I am on-line, and no one is around I answer since the time changes vary.
Additionally, often new posters sign on and put up a facade with false pretenses so many tend to read people who have a stance. One girl had some postings very odd--it was "interesting" to be polite. Part of the difficulty w/technology & Internet; interpretations are subjective to the reader and not always the intent of the reader--it became dilute or misinterpreted.
Good to see your wife is a nurse--CCU! I used to work Per Diem in another hospital for experience in CCU/ICU when I first became a nurse--I wanted to learn all there was! The Docs while I was in the ER; when surgeons [etc.] came through or the ER Md's, if they knew you wanted to learn they taught. I decided to go on to be a NP the day the ER Doc trusted me to clear a c-spine and handle a MST since he took the one which was "crashing". It was time!
You are better off having gone off to Med School v. Nursing!
[quote=Hugh7;217702]I let this thread go for a few days, thinking it had died. Pity.Very easily. Doctors are human. The very fact that we need the words "iatrogenic" and "nosocomial" suggests that we should not let doctors become little tin gods or hospitals, temples. Medicine is not magic. Knowledge about it is readily available to ordinary mortals.
But as we have repeatedly said here, genital reduction surgery of healthy neonates (male or female) is not medicine (it treats no symptoms, it cures no diseases), and anyone is free to debate it in non-medical terms.[/quote]
Hugh...Medical expertise is gained through medical practice and medical experience. The practice of any provider will change over years and gaining knowledge. Doctors and all are human beings yet are forced to work in the terms of "Man as a Machine" in the US. Hospital acquired infections are the number one reason I discourage admission unless it is absolutely necessary. These are not always carried by staff; often other patients or visitors. I believe if you go in healthy you are at a good risk of "catching" something unwanted while in. No one said/implied they are God's, etc. Knowledge is available to many; however, correct interpretation for one not trained in the field is a hazard in itself.
Regarding the circumcision portion; they are performed in the US as RAM stated. As another poster stated the numbers are declining. Your last statement about not being a medical necessity for neonates has validity. However it's still parental consent. Similarly, infants/children are exposed to cigarette smoke. Second hand smoking is an issue with long term health hazard's and asthma which can lead to death or lung cancer. The government does not ban smoking to protect the child's health.
I believe the issue falls within the posed question; "What is the US government willing to enforce/ban?". Secondary, is the next step; "Assuming Governmental intervention is employed in the US, what other restrictions will be imposed [and where does the line blur regarding any Governmental imposed bans]?" Look how far the current administration has gone with imposing on all in the US and forcing his [President Bush] beliefs upon the world [as he believes...for their own good]. How does one define such blurred lines? Ban circumcision and smoking? See the issues I am pointing out? There are always special interest groups; which ones get their wishes and is it equitable to all special interest groups? I believe the matter is one of bureaucracy & the red tape associated with legislating such changes.
If you have a circumsion will it affect or improve your penis for when u have sex ?
[quote=pharoh_13;222422]If you have a circumsion will it affect or improve your penis for when u have sex ?
Email me at [/quote]
Please read the links. I find it interesting you wish people to send you private emails so you can discuss your penis. I doubt many will fall for this tactic.
Pages