I'm sure that those who did "minstrel shows" were wonderful people as well.

Ya gotta love a healthy debate!

Ya know what, i was watching Will and Grace over the past week, and i really paid attention to the UNDERLYING messages of the episodes....and ya know what? If you REALLY listen to the message of each episode you come to find out how really POSITIVE those messages really are.

If you look past the stereotypical jokes and behaviors of the cast, you SEE that the producers (many of whom are gay) are spotlighting how gay men (and women) are just like anyone else in the world. We work hard, we pay taxes, we want loving relationships, close friendships, we have goals and dreams, love children, belive in the higher family values (nurturing and loving children), etc.

So, with all due respect to the "chest thumping" issues over the rightness or wrongness of stereotyping in such shows - the real message is far more important than the stereotypes!

From six feet under, to queer as folk, will and grace, queer eye, and all the rest - i say KEEP DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING!

[QUOTE=Quote (Jracer @ Jan. 02 2005,12:18)]Well "girlfriend" is a fairly loose term if you get right down to it. I mean seriously if she's a girl wouldn't she be a girlfriend?

Here again is the stigma of society and labels used to identify.
If the guy is gay would he be called a "gayfriend"?

JR[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but I didn't understand that at all, JRacer.

I meant "girlfriend" being used by men for men. I believe the practice is rooted in a time when gay men changed the names/pronouns of the person they were dating to female. eg... Joseph becomes Josephine.

Exactly Jracer.

Serious, i think this is the reason why peopl ehave "PROBLEMS" with gays... like most people dont even THINK what your talking about Yeah Maybe the Rednecks. but not that many people care.
alot of gay men have always said GIRLFRIEND and it wasnt learned by watching it on tv..
I'm also glad that well im not influenced by this kinda thing from TV. ALSO no one is realyl accepted, its just something we gotta deal with.
and also you don't have to care, its TV. We all know half of its Pretend, well thats what i learned as a child, to see reality, and tv as somethign seperate well unless its news.. and YES i read Jesus land, and you know.. i thought it was sick, but NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE GAY.. but because they were PEOPLE being killed for who they are.
Honest, i think everyone should just forget about crap like this because its what holds someone back.
*i know my post is gonna be in fragments, im sorry for that*
I dont see gay people as a joke, or as weak.. i dont know anyone that does, and no it isnt acceptible.. but.. by all people... as in.. to me it doesnt matter if they are gay or straight or WHATEVER ELSE.. it shouldnt happen. I wish people would just stop focusing so much on themselves and see the big picture and realise well Love everyone.. LOL i can't stand this kind of topic, though its good, it just makes me realise that people can't deal with it themselves. and in this case its like blameing straight people or something...WE all gotta learn we're all different. I wish people would see the beauty in that.. i sure do.. BAH

im out.. i gotta.. think about this post.. cause BAH

Well "girlfriend" is a fairly loose term if you get right down to it. I mean seriously if she's a girl wouldn't she be a girlfriend?

Here again is the stigma of society and labels used to identify.
If the guy is gay would he be called a "gayfriend"?

JR

*applauds JRacer on his soapbox*

You are absolutely correct, sir.  We aren't dealing with "what is" here, we are dealing with society's perception of "what is".  For most people, their behavior is adapted by copying what they see everyday.  Whether we like it or not, a big part of that is influenced by television.  

I'm not just talking about straight people here... I'll get to them in a moment (lol)... but gay behavior.  The idea that all gay men are effeminate or "flamers" doesn't just affect how straight people see gays, it starts to influence the way gay people act.  Does anyone really think that a person starts out doing "three snaps and twist" or calling everyone "girlfriend"?  No.  It's learned behavior.  Gays are more acceptable today than in the past, but we still aren't accepted.  Dealing with that while growing up makes many long for some group that will accept them for who they are.  When you finally find it, you adopted the "group behavior".  

I know whereof I speak.  I've been there... and I'm not exactly one to follow the crowd.  I can, however, "camp" with the best of them... but it's an act.  The issue for me becomes when it is no longer an act.  When every guy becomes "she"; when stereotypes are adopted NOT because you actually feel that way, but because it's what all your friends say and do.  

Now,  you might say, "People like that need to grow a backbone and just be themselves."  That could be true.  But how many people, gay or straight, actually do that?  It's hard to be different from the rest of the crowd.  It's even harder when you are already predisposed to being different from 90% of the rest of the crowd.  

Jracer sounds like he avoid this by raising his son.  Not getting drawn into the gay mindset.  I danced on the fringe of it... but finally came the realization that I was still pretending just like someone still in the closet.  And as Ellen Degeneres put it so well, "Why would I come out just to have a whole different group tell me how I should act?".  

THIS is why we need role models.  And  yes, LadyofLucidDepths, role models can be anyone... but it's nice to have someone you can actually relate to.  Someone you KNOW has been through the same thing you have.  To know that someone just like you can do something good or make a difference.

You say, "Who cares?"  I do.  I HAVE to.  It's not just ordinary behavior that we are talking about.  Treating gay people as a joke or "weak" leads those so inclined to prey upon them.  Showing them as less than desirable member of society makes it okay to hate them.  Check out this (if you haven't already):
Jesusland
It makes people believe that it is acceptable behavior to tease, harass, and yes, even kill.  Even when not taken to the murderous extreme, it can lead people- especially young people- to suicide.  To me, that is NOT acceptable.

Yes, I know this has turn into a rant.  I've just seen far too much of the downside of this behavior to remain impassive about it.  I do, however, apologize for it being so long... I feel most posts don't need a book to get your point across.  What can I say... I just got on a roll. LOL.

Going to grab my soapbox here....

The only thing with television is money and they don't care who they really hurt. Seriously how many of these sitcoms have a real plot? Its just one situation after another after another and to be honest I personally find them not only boring but without merit and point. Bring a same sex relationship into play and now it becomes more intresting only because it's something different to the "average" viewer. I wonder if the long term portrail of same sex relationships are going to do more harm than good in "society" and while we are at it what is "society" anyway? A pack of rules for everyone to live by? Gotta recycle and act like the neighbors or you're considered "deviant"? Something that comes to mind when I think of "society" and that is We The Sheeple that is subject to a transvisual brainwashing by a large glass tube that shows moving images that we can identify as the norm or something we could never grasp.

As a gay man I sometimes find these shows as being so far out in left field it could never be understood. Not every gay is a flamer and the truth is many gays would never be pegged as gay in the first place. I might be the exception having raised a son however many are straight acting either by choice or by their nature. The other side of the coin is how one sees a gay person, some think they are "gross" or some other bad term but if you really think about it what does a persons sexuality have to do with the overall quality of a person to begin with? I dont feel it makes them bad at all but then again I don't recycle like my neighbor nor do I care for Seinfeld or any of those sitcoms in the first place.

I consider the television as a "moron scope" who sets its sight on We The Sheeple for a lifelong brainwashing.

JR

OH also, Role Models.. a role model is anyone you make it to be.. Gay or Not.

you know, all i can say is who cares.. because the more people focus on whatever it is.. the more they pick it apart, why not just enjoy it.. laugh at it.. think its a funny show.. whatever.
I duno, i think there is alot of positive about gays out there. You also have to understand for most of the people MAKING the shows. I can bet on the fact they dont go "what will gay people think of this show".. let alone "what will a straight person think of this show".. serious i think you guys sh ould just let it go and see it for what it is.. a TV SHOW

Hi Rawbob!

I wondered what your take on this would be...  it's very similar to something I've heard before.

I once heard Harvey Fierstein say, "I don't care what the parts are as long as we are represented.  Bad publicity is better than no publicity at all."

I STRONGLY disagree with that!  Now, most portrayals today are only mildly annoying to me, but in the past anyone that was even hinted as gay was a tragic or evil figure.  Think Sal Mineo in "Rebel Without a Cause" or, Katherine Hepburn's son in "Suddenly Last Summer".  I, personally, feel that if they want to portray gay people as serial killers or child molesters, I'd just as soon remain anonymous.  People DO tend to take what they see on television as "real life".  

Gay people have never really had role models.  I think we deserve to see some positive examples of the gay community.  Someone that might inspire those teenagers who might otherwise commit suicide because they see being gay as the end of their lives.

Damn..i go on vacation for a week and miss all this good posting! hahahah

Ok..as you ALL know, i'm also a gay man (in an 8 year LTR).

I guess i'm more practical than emotional on this subject. YES, it sucks that mainstream TV has to resort to the stereotype of what gay men are like. I won't recount all the examples that were stated in the posts above, but yes, it does suck...but throughout the history of TV, much of societies ablity to accept others (blacks as equals, single mom's, etc) have started out being sterotyped on tv. To the weak minded and intolerant...nothings going to change......but for the vast majority of viewers....the fact of exposing mainstream america to gay men is a GOOD thing.

It takes time for society to modify it's perceptions about many stereotypes....but history show's that the change DOES happen!

Look how much has happend just this year alone, from gay marriage in MA and CA, to the Ellen show - i mean, c'mon....you think that 99% of those watching her don't know she's a lesbian? How about queer eye for the str8 guy? The number one rated show on BRAVO and many episodes have even been shown on NBC!

So, yea, it can be irritating at times when you see the stereotypes on tv....but overall....the more exposure we see, the better it will be in the long run!

thats very true oberon. although the process is taking too long in my eyes.

-mariah

Hi Soulmates,

I knew what you meant when you said you "couldn't care less..".  I wish more people had that attitude.  As for how I, personally, classify sexual orientation, this is from another topic:

[QUOTE=Quote (oberon @ Dec. 13 2004,17:21)]My personal feelings are that there are three separate sexuality catagories: straight, gay, and bisexual.  If you are straight, you ONLY have sex with members of the opposite sex.  If you are gay, then you ONLY have sex with members of the same sex.  Anything else means you are bisexual.  Period.  Now, I'm not talking about a period of "finding yourself" or sexual experimentation.  I'm talking about actively seeking out someone for a sexual relationship... of ANY variety (manual, oral, penetration...).  [/QUOTE]

As for your brother-in-law, it sounds like he was a gay man who tried to cover by getting married.  Because of prejudice, too many gay people end up doing this.  It just means people getting hurt.  

[QUOTE=Quote (girl12 @ Dec. 28 2004,19:02)]
ya hollywood doesnt seem to get that. hav u noticed also that they hav gay people all living with similar lives? similar jobs, similar love life, similar family.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's a joke among gays that there are only three roles gay men have in Hollywood.  You're either dying of AIDS, your the friend of someone dying of AIDS, or you're the female leads funny best friend.  lol.   One of the sad things is I believe (apart from not wanting to upset the conservatives too much), Tease is right, if they didn't do it this way, no one would know who the gay characters were.

I keep having to remind myself that we've come a long way in a fairly short while.  Twenty years ago is was still pretty dangerous to come out.  Now- while not 100% safe- at least there is a chance you'll be accepted.   Small steps.  *sigh*

Oberon - thank you. not to mean i dont care about people, so when i say i could care less who folks are sexually intimate with, i mean it does not matter to my opinion of the persons worth or value or think more or less of them - be it white with black, girl with girl .... in my mind my sexual orientation (thank you for that descriptive term) is "gay" to them. btw - what is the term you would say i am? straight? just wonderig, cuz really never gave any bodies difference in lifestyle than much thought. who am i to say? whos right is it for me to be judging things other folks do?
very good that you remind us that it is not a choice like decide coffee or tea. i for one forget that just like me didnt just wake up one day and think a conscience thought to date a guy - you all didnt eitherr. its "built in" and not like some event said to you - i dated a gal and that relationship was so awful i'll only date guys now on.... THAT has to be the hardest part to get thru our brain. im a wee bit bipolar, my brain is "wired" that way, notthing I did, no event, no thought oh today im start seeing life thru a brain wired this way.... i dont KNOW another way! i cant be "normal" cuz my normal IS to me just as yours is to you. rather bad annology cuz i take meds to "make me more "normal" and meds for gay... but....
i have wondered tho cuz bro-in-law is "gay". always growing up, all up til he got married to a gir!!! they divorced and he - he what? went gay again? or married a gal to try straight or??? not bisexual like my hubby and me 3some w/a gal.... he was not interested in gals ....
may be what gives folks the thought its a choice, one day girl, one day guy - ... cuz we do see others in that types of thing and if guy is with guy, gay - same guy wih gal next date.... hu? we see gay/straight/gay/straight rather than 3some stuation. may be thats how we reason you choose mates by preference as opposed to being orientated one way or other.

[QUOTE=Quote (oberon @ Dec. 28 2004,05:47)]Oh, I know and I didn't think you (or the movie, for that matter) were implying that gay=AIDS.  And you are right, it is a well done movie.  AIDS just seems to be a MAJOR topic in gay-themed movies.  I'd just like to see more movies that didn't center around that.  

Whether Hollywood knows it or not, there are gay people who don't lead tragic lives.[/QUOTE]
ya hollywood doesnt seem to get that. hav u noticed also that they hav gay people all living with similar lives? similar jobs, similar love life, similar family. it pisses me off. its like they have put gay people into like..a category, like ants..grr.

-mariah

[QUOTE=Quote (girl12 @ Dec. 27 2004,14:06)]o of course. i dont like the whole gay=aids thing either. but b4 night falls is based on a true story...so ya.

-mariah[/QUOTE]
Oh, I know and I didn't think you (or the movie, for that matter) were implying that gay=AIDS. And you are right, it is a well done movie. AIDS just seems to be a MAJOR topic in gay-themed movies. I'd just like to see more movies that didn't center around that.

Whether Hollywood knows it or not, there are gay people who don't lead tragic lives.

[QUOTE=Quote (soulmates82 @ Dec. 27 2004,05:52)] so i really am interested in how to say a person is homosexual as opposed to hetrosexual without seeming like im namecalling or implying i find their preference in partners to be awful wrong....[/QUOTE]
Hi Soulmates,

If you don't want to offend anyone and yet want to cut down on the typing (lol) the correct term is "gay".  It's not "flip" or rude.  

I, personally, don't like to be referenced as "homosexual"... not that it's rude or offensive, it's just that most straight people who disapprove of gay people tend to use the term.  For some reason, they don't seem to be able to just say "gay".  Whatever.  It doesn't offend me... just when I see it, I tend automatically to think the person is anti-gay.

Finally, the other thing that I noticed is you refer to it as a "preference".  Most of us don't think of it that way.  It implies that we had a choice.  The only choices you have in your sexuality are how  you deal with it.  Not who you are going to love/be attracted to.  If you want to be inoffensive, then the term is "orientation".  

Take care.

[QUOTE=Quote (oberon @ Dec. 26 2004,21:47)][QUOTE=Quote (girl12 @ Dec. 25 2004,22:20)]oberon, hav u ever seen a movie 'before night falls'?
its about a gay poet who died of aids. its a good movie, has some softcore gay porn in it too!  

and also thats one thing i dont understand, y do they show straight sex on tv all the time and then people get grossed out by 2 gay guys kissing?[/QUOTE]
LOL... yes, Girl12, I've seen "Before Night Falls"... I AM gay, after all...LMAO.  It's still novel enough to have a gay movie or television show that whenever one comes out, we tend to know about it and tell our friends.

It was okay... it falls into that "gay/AIDS" catagory that sometimes gets on my nerves.  If you look at the movies out there that feature gay characters, too many seem to center around AIDS- in my opinion.  

That's one of the reasons that I love the movie "Big Eden".  It's just a love story.  Pure and simple.[/QUOTE]
o of course. i dont like the whole gay=aids thing either. but b4 night falls is based on a true story...so ya.

-mariah

[QUOTE=Quote (Howard.moe @ Dec. 25 2004,22:27)]....How do you feel about terms like "the gays", "homos", "dykes", "queers", "carpet muchers", etc. ?  When, if ever is it okay to use these terms?  Are some of them like the "N" word, in which I mean that its okay for you to say it if you are one, but not okay if you aren't?  

If I have offended anyone, it wasn't my intention.  ......[/QUOTE]
GREAT question!!!! i dont like using the term homo. lesbian is proper but seems so "formal" like a title. gay seems flippent or downgrading, i DO NOT like the term queer or dyke. my using it in my post i used it more as an extreme same as i used prissy. hard to explain but honest to pete i did not intend to use it to offend.
im straight. i hear folks calling others dyke, queer, homo, and find those as offensive as "n.... Word". those are terms imply it to mean the person is somehow nasty, horrid, slime of the earth... like term trailer trash... whore, cun&, ...
so i really am interested in how to say a person is homosexual as opposed to hetrosexual without seeming like im namecalling or implying i find their preference in partners to be awful wrong....

[QUOTE=Quote (girl12 @ Dec. 25 2004,22:20)]oberon, hav u ever seen a movie 'before night falls'?
its about a gay poet who died of aids. its a good movie, has some softcore gay porn in it too!  

and also thats one thing i dont understand, y do they show straight sex on tv all the time and then people get grossed out by 2 gay guys kissing?[/QUOTE]
LOL... yes, Girl12, I've seen "Before Night Falls"... I AM gay, after all...LMAO.  It's still novel enough to have a gay movie or television show that whenever one comes out, we tend to know about it and tell our friends.

It was okay... it falls into that "gay/AIDS" catagory that sometimes gets on my nerves.  If you look at the movies out there that feature gay characters, too many seem to center around AIDS- in my opinion.  

That's one of the reasons that I love the movie "Big Eden".  It's just a love story.  Pure and simple.

[QUOTE=Quote (LadyOfLucidDepths @ Dec. 25 2004,23:28)]we all know that isnt what ALL gay men act like..[/QUOTE]
Sorry, Lady, but not everyone knows this.  You would be amazed at some of the ideas, comments, and questions that people have concerning gay people.  

I said I realize this is just a tv show, BUT some people don't seem to understand that.  Heck, there are people out there who wanted a rescue party formed to save the castaways on "Gilligan's Island".  The fact is many people will take what they see on tv and believe that is what ALL gay people are like.  When those portrayals reinforce bad stereotypes, then real people suffer.

[QUOTE=Quote (Howard.moe @ Dec. 25 2004,22:27)]for some reason I can't remember the name...  but does anyone watch the show on HBO about the family that runs a funeral home?  I want to say the name is Six Feet Under, but I'm not positive. Anyway, there is a gay couple on that show that seems to be the only fair representation of the gay community (at least of the homosexuals that I know).  

another question:  How do you feel about terms like "the gays", "homos", "dykes", "queers", "carpet muchers", etc. ?  When, if ever is it okay to use these terms?  Are some of them like the "N" word, in which I mean that its okay for you to say it if you are one, but not okay if you aren't?  

If I have offended anyone, it wasn't my intention.  I'm just curious because I don't really have the opportunity to discuss some of these topics with my friends/family.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Howard, the show is "Six Feet Under", and I do think it is a better portrayal of a gay couple.

Okay, the "bad" words...  Hmmm... It usually takes a lot to offend me, personally.  It can be a matter of "it doesn't matter what you call me, it's what I answer to".  It also depends on the context in which the word is used.  You are correct that it does also make a difference as to who is using the word.  

I, certainly, don't find your using the words to ask a question offensive.  Nor do I find them particularly offensive when used by friends (gay or straight) in a joking manner.  Ex:  After work one evening, I was freshening up and spritzed myself with cologne.  A lesbian friend questioned, "You carry cologne around with you?" I showed her that I actually had three different types.  To which she responded, "You f@g!"  I found that funny.

I do find them offensive when used as a put-down or an attempt to be deliberately rude.  The examples that I can think of here:  "That's so gay!" to indicate that someone has done something badly.  It's an obvious derogatory comment.  Then, of course, there are those that think it's okay to walk around carrying signs that read, "God hates f@gs".  

Did that help or was it just more confusing??

i think will and grace is friggin halarious.. and serious if you see it JUST for the gay parts in it... then your gonna probally find it offensive.. but.. i duno Karen.. LAUGHS shes pretty damn funny... i duno.. i think people about Gender.. and about sexuality are too much in an up roar about it, if they would just CHILL, both sides.. taht is.. just chill out and realise it for what it is.. and what it is.. is an equal.. just like color and the SHOW, serious.. its just a SHOW.. we all know that isnt what ALL gay men act like.. but in the show they show BOTH sides.. of a gay man.. or what you might see.. you seea really flamboyant one.. and a more masculine and not flamboyant..? like i think there is a contrast there.. to show.. that you CANT tell.. just cause they might talk girly or something doesnt mean they really are.. i duno tahts just what i think, then again i dont think about it because.. to me its just a show...
and SERIOUSLY.. when i see to men.. i feel weird.. like i dont like seeing it? but i accept it and i think its cool, like good for them lol whatever its no different but to me MENTALLY.. i dont like seeing it.. its like.. "well.. thats kinda weird" LOL cause to me.. i see most men as masculine, i've always seen them WITH a WOMAN.. u know? then seeing them.. being masculine with another man? who might seem more feminine.. its like.. in my mind goes wtf? and with women for some reason it doesnt bother me...? and i honestly don't know why.. but the guys kissing almost creeps me out when i know it shouldnt! well im done ranting i kinda forgot whats going on.. i've been drinking HAHA

Jamie

oberon, hav u ever seen a movie 'before night falls'?
its about a gay poet who died of aids. its a good movie, has some softcore gay porn in it too!

and also thats one thing i dont understand, y do they show straight sex on tv all the time and then people get grossed out by 2 gay guys kissing?

Ah, a topic near and dear to my heart...lol.  

Do I, personally, find gay representations on television (and movies) offensive?  I want to say, "Yes", but it's a fine line to walk.

You bring up the "main" show on television today- "Will and Grace"- and it does get on my nerves.  I think the portrayals are very superficial and not at ALL flattering.  Lines like, *Karen throws her keys to Will and he just watches them fly past* Grace: "Karen, the gays don't catch."  GRRRR... I get the feeling many times that they are laughing "at us" instead of "with us".  

Then, there is the whole "sex" issue.  Sure they talk about it, but have you EVER seen Will actually romantically kiss another guy?  Have you ever seen him seriously in bed with another guy?  He kisses Grace (or other women) more than most straight guys.  Yet, Grace falls into bed with every guy that comes on the show.  Again... GRRR...

However, I have known a "Jack".  The character isn't even over the top compared to the guy I knew.  I, also, realize that this is supposed to be a comedy and the straight characters don't come off looking so good either.  The difference for me- and I KNOW it's not a "fair" one- is that straight people can afford to look bad.  Gay people really can't.  

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like to see more of a balance of gay characters.  Stereotypes are usually rooted in some fact (God help me, but I love showtunes! LOL), but they don't represent ALL that a group is.  

If anyone is interested, here's a link to my favorite gay-themed movie.  It's just plainly a good movie; the main character just happens to be gay.

Big Eden

i have a LOT of gay friends. i am bisexual myself, and i think that television portrays all gay people as really flamboyant, which i have not noticed a lot. sometimes its like that, but most of my gay friends i had no idea they were gay at first..until they told me. i think the reason television portrays gay people like it does is because they want it to be funny. i think that its really disrespectful actually.

-mariah

mate and i were talking bout this the other day sort of. i find our lesbian friends to be more on the serious side of things and are not as open in showing that side of themselves.
not sure exactly why we have so different of mood when only change is the difference of company gender.
not to say the gals stomp around hard ass dyke like or try to giggle act like silly prissy frillies. the gals have shown affection towards each other in our presence, hugged, kissed, held arms and hand.... have never seen that with the guys. the guys are more intune with issues of interest to both guys and gals. they share the best recipes, know where to get a sale on sheets, can debate best performance car parts and specs allll day, they watch football and monday morning quarterback on fumbles and hot tight ends butt look sssoooo good he must do millions of squeezes a day keep it so cute.... the gals generally keep a better conversation on general topics like how much their utilities were this month and speak more on whats new with other folks they run into or work with.... a lot more reserved about asking for my secret recipe for brownies or they saw a pair of shoes to match something... or maybe my brother can find a door hinge for that car if you still need one cuz going to the auto show.... seems the guys are good to go and tit for tat and darlin will you please do something with that plant 1/2 dead over there, gals dont seem as receptive to show their view or hear expressions of view anything male or female related. as a straight gal wanting a good good gay friend, like grace i think id go with the guy. mate seconds my sentiments as he too believes it would be a better friendship between him and a gay guy.

I'm not gay and I couldn't really tell you if it was offensive or not.

But, I will say that TV/movie does the stereotypical gay because if they didn't, people in general wouldn't know that they were gay.
Society in general thinks that every gay man is some type of flamboyant person. All sorts of girly. If they didn't portray them this way in the movies and on TV, people wouldn't get it and people would never figure out that they were gay.

im with you on this Raw