[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]Need some womanly advice.
I'm frustrated with what I think many guys deal with . . . frequency of intimacy. Married 15 years. My wife seems to love me. She's close as far as hugging daily and giving me a kiss goodbye here and there. But the sexual frequency is nil. Now frequency differs with everyone and I'm aware of this.
Here's some background and this may be why I feel like damaged goods. I was previously married for 14 years. We had a very hot sexual relationship. One of those relationships where we'd both know by a glance or a quick look across the room either at home or in a public place, what was going to happen later on that day. Nothing had to be said. But at other times, it would be said with a soft whisper in the ear at the department store, or playing footsie while out dining for the afternoon or evening.
I remember mowing the lawn one afternoon and looking up to see my then wife, leaning on the deck railing watching me. Just the eye-connection told me what she was thinking. It was great to have that type of sexual connection.
We had sex 2-3 times a week. It might be a 20 minute afternoon quickie on the weekend while the kids were playing outside or a late night passionate two hours. A lax week was maybe one time and that didn't happen very often, except when one of us was away for a few days on business or she was angry with me about whatever. But the make-up sex usually made it well worth the anger issues she had. Other than that, she was a rather high maintenance personality and she ended the marriage at year 15 looking for greener grass, but we remain friends today.
So I was accustom to a relationship that involved a lot of sexual anticipation and very fulfilling passionate sex. Obviously, everyone is different and I didn't expect my second wife to be a cookie cutter of my first.
Second wife: She's a great person and a great gal. But I think if left up to her, sex would be on her itinerary about once every six weeks. We are ten years different and I'm 50 and she's 40 but I'm the one with the high sex drive and that's the way it's always been.
I feel like our physical intimacy is at the bottom of her "things to do" list whereas it's in my top 5. Often she just falls asleep without any hint of interest other than maybe snuggling, even when she doesn't have to get up early or have anything else to do the next morning.
For most of our relationship I've had to initiate any sexual activity, but that gets pretty old being the pursuer for years on end. You begin to feel like it's a one-sided relationship and the other person is only interested in satisfying your needs when she has too. Some guys may not care, I happen to be one who either wants a partner who is very much into it, or it's just not the same. Sex which is coerced isn't the same. And I think I also have to point out that I'm as much or maybe more into satisfying her as anything else. That's a HUGE turn-on for me to turn her on. I could spend hours just pleasing her and I'd love it.
Anyway, a couple of months ago I went to bed kind of thinking it was the right night for some intimacy, but I didn't initiate anything because we were overdo and as I said, I do it most of the time. It was a weekend, we were in bed by 10. But she's out like a light after 30 minutes and this was after about two straight weeks with no sexual activity.
So I got up, somewhat pissed off to be honest, sat at the computer looking at my email and contemplating my frustration, then came back to bed 30 minutes later thinking it was better to just "sleep it off". She was stirred as I came to bed and it was obvious that she felt bad falling asleep so she began snuggling with me somewhat sexually, but by that point I was just irritated beyond intimacy. I told her I wasn't interested in her "guilt-centered sexual desire" and a few days went by before I told her we should really see a counselor because this had been going on for too many years. I told her as I have off and on over the years that it would be nice to see her initiate once in a while . . . that she never flirts with me or returns my flirtations when I throw them out there and that it left me feeling odd about where our relationship was physically and sexually most of the time. Mind you, I never felt odd with my first wife in this area. It just came perfectly natural for both of us.
She opened up to me and said she didn't have the confidence to initiate sex most of the time, that she theorized that it must be due to self-esteem issues. She said, "I really don't know how to flirt" but did promise that if I gave her 30 days, she would do the initiating and try to teach herself how to be confident. It's important to keep in mind, I told her that she's never going to be turned down so there's no chance of rejection, and for years I've done everything I could to tell her how pretty she is, how beautiful she is, etc. There was a point however when she put on 30 LBS and I probably didn't make as many flattering remarks during that period even though I still loved her. But I never said hurtful things either because I'm not that type. I just kept that to myself although it was frustrating that she let herself get that heavy. Last year, she dropped that 30 LBS by accident really due to new job stress and altered eating habits at work.
But the bottom line, she should certainly know that I'm in to her after this many years. That's not a mystery.
So for the next month she initiated sex about every 4 or 5 nights and things seemed pretty good. It wasn't up to my frequency level but I wasn't complaining either given what I've dealt with over the years. It was nice to be pursued instead of being the constant pursuer. Then, it tapered off after that month, and now were back to normal which sucks quite honestly.
Our pattern is I either have to initiate and I don't do it more than about every week to 10 days because I feel she's not interested and frankly I don't want a partner who just "puts out", I want one who is interested in participative intimacy.
If a couple of weeks go by, she knows by my lacking extra-conversation that I'm irritated and she'll initiate sex. But it's on about a 12-14 day rotation and I'm quite sure she does that more for me than herself.
So here's my question ladies. What is the problem? We seem to be close in many ways, but when it's sex, it's at the lower end of her "needs." She's orgasmic so that's not the issue. And when we are intimate, she gets very wet and is very into sex at that moment.
But it's like she's a sexual camel, able to go for weeks without it being much of a thought.
I've never cheated on her, but I find myself to be extremely flattered by any nice comments or flirtation-like conversation that I get from other women lately. I work in a field where there are many single and married women, so I run into this every so often and I get it also from some female friends I've known over the years. I wouldn't normally pay attention to flattering comments or come-ons but now I'm finding it feels really good to hear them. I've never acted on anything but it's becoming much harder to turn away these overt opportunities even though I'd have a difficult time ever acting on them.
I apologize for this being so long, but I thought proper background would prohibit a lot of additional questions. Need honest female insight![/FONT]
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There are several different comments that you have mentioned that may be contributing factors to your situation. First does she recognize that there is a difference in sex drive and that once every six weeks or so in not the norm?
My next question is has this been ongoing over the length of your relationship or something that has come on recently? My suggestion would be for her to get her hormone levels checked, and, if she is using a hormonal birth control to switch and try others with her doctor's input. Different pills affect people differently and one of the most common is having a low libido.
Confidence and to some extent self esteem can be bolstered by receiving genuine praise, compliments, and, feedback. If you usually irritated and ticked off and not giving her to boosts she would benefit from, then I suggest putting your own feelings aside and adopting this new approach long term.
One of the things you mentioned was her snuggling, does she do this frequently, or, more importantly, do you and is she receptive? My point being that you can have intimacy without intercourse. Second, as great as intercourse is, intimacy for a woman is more important. If she is open to kissing and cuddling, you can try to up the ante' and see if she is willing to service you. Doing so will help you yet not demand a lot from her. This is also a very good strategy to continue on because not demands or expectations are made beforehand.
I hope this is of help. Got questions?
Yes, her body-image has had a negative effect. How to put and end to that is to stand by her side looking into the same mirror together and vigorously say "Only an insane man would NOT want to get next to you! You're gorgeous!" Women look into a mirror and see ONLY what is NOT good. This part's bad and this part's bad etc and so on. The next time you're there when she does this - leap up and force her to see herself as YOU see her right then and there in the mirror both of you naked.
Congrats upon NOT accepting "appeasement guilt-ridden sex" from your wife! Far too many men are willing to accept "dry bones" instead of meat. The message should be "Come to me with fire in your eyes and desire for me in your heart or don't come at all!" Yeah it gets tough but if you keep it up you'll get there in the end.
Her hormones are going to change and let us hope that as menopause approaches, hers ramp up as they should. I fully agree with Doc that she needs to have a medical exam that includes a hormone check.
But there is another component here that we have not talked about.
What is her view of sex itself? Does she see feminiity as being sexually passive? Does she think sex is just for young people, having children, mainly done by women to satisfy/controll/reward men?
Because how sex is thought of in her brain is precisely how sex will occur in the bedroom.
Please read the sticky above entitled "One Year in The Program" to see how one man turned his marriage around - wife from timid pussycat to rampant Lioness.
In many (most?) relationships there are some differences in sex drive. Most commonly that the man wants a bit more than the woman (not always). A healthy relationship requires constant compromise in all things to satisfy each partner with equitable trade-offs across all areas of interest. You two have gotten away from this and tensions result. You are to be commended for talking. Now, perhaps, it is time to talk with some professional assistance. Most counselors will tell you that sex is as often a symptom of real problems as it is the real problem itself.
Thanks for the reply EEK. And thanks for your support of my not settling for "appeasement guilt-ridden sex" clause. That's such a turn off to me and like you've said, many men settle for it because it's sex and they don't care how they get it. I want a partner . . . . a participator. Someone who craves being with me all day long and when the evening comes, can't wait to get there. That's me, but it's not her. I want someone who has the same fire I do, but unfortunately, after this much time together that's not likely.
I will try to reinforce more of how she perceives herself per your suggestion, but as I said, she knows I'm in to her. She knows she turns me on. The extra weight she had was tough for me over the past few years, but I didn't really let that be known that I can ever recall. It wasn't just looks, I was also concerned about her health. Diabetes, heart health, things like that. But just for the record, this "not interested in sex" problem existed before she added 30 LBS so it's entirely unrelated.
With relation to the "weight" thing, I work with a woman very closely whom I've known for many years and she's someone I can confide in and she said to me, "I always try to look my best around my husband because I know it reflects on him how I look." She's got considerable insight but even she can't figure out my "lacking initiative" issue at home, particularly because everything else about our relationship is pretty good. And she's right. Men want to show their wives off publicly. So when she's looking good, it's a huge boost for me as her husband. My wife tends to dress down no matter where she goes or who she's with. I've just accepted the "tom-boy" look even though I'd love to see her dress sexier and more stylish when we go out together. But as I said, I try not to be coercive or come across as bossy. She never puts on earrings anymore, or wears lipstick or paints her finger / toe nails. She's a natural beauty as far as I'm concerned, but she never goes the extra mile which I again chalk up to simple laziness. Those little extras are all huge turn-ons for me (and most other guys) to see her looking fine and think to myself, that's my wife, and nobody else's. But that's a whole different issue and I've learned to just live with that aspect.
It's funny EEK you and the doctor both mentioned the hormone check in your comments. I brought that up to her about seven or eight years ago thinking maybe her natural testosterone was low. She said she'd get it checked, but never followed up. I'm not the type who is going to nag about it. My feeling is that I've told her where I'm at and that someone with a sex drive as low as her's seems abnormal. Maybe I should have insisted . . . I'm not sure anymore. I think I just steer away from coercive measures because it's not me. It's not pride or stubbornness, but if your partner isn't concerned enough to look into what is obviously an issue for her husband when it's been discussed numerous times, what's the point? You just get tired of talking about it. Then the problem gets ignored and festers and becomes more of a problem down the road.
Her view of sex? I think she enjoys sex when we're in the act. She wasn't orgasmic when I met her and she admitted to me that she had never experienced an orgasm with another man. My guess is that trust was an issue since she had several break-ups that were initiated by the men she dated. After a few months of patience, reinforcing that I loved her, and telling her to relax and trust me, she was able to climax and has never had a problem since. Actually it used to take quite a while for her to reach that point (and I'm not complaining, I enjoyed getting her there) and now she's there fairly quickly after foreplay and me entering her.
She's not old fashioned or "Catholic" about sex at all. She doesn't view sex as a youth activity. She did tell me during that conversation we had a couple months back where she said she'd take more the initiative (in May) that she enjoyed being somewhat dominated, but not in a violent way. Trust me, getting those kinds of details out of her is very difficult. I have to sit and tell her, "I'm your husband. I'm here to satisfy your needs. But I have to know what it is you want and what it is you like. I want to fulfill your fantasies, but I need to know what they are." It's hard to get out of her but I can pry a little bit here and there at certain times when the subject comes up. It's weird for me because it's not like we're kids at 40 and 50, and my first wife and I had such an open forum for sexual discussion from the time we met at around 20 years of age that it seems strange to me that after 15 years together on my second marriage to have to try to get her to tell me these things.
Anyway since posting my frustration yesterday here's a case in point hot off the press. Our last sexual liaison was September 12th. Prior to that it was late August. Last night, we went to bed with her around 10:00. Kids were in bed, everything is perfect. She goes to work late, so it's not like she's up at the crack of dawn. She turns the TV on and we're laying their watching reality TV (not my cup of tea but I let it go) for three hours until I hear her sound asleep. Wow! What a turn on!!! I think at times that it's just sheer laziness which in my book is still not right. She lays next to me watching TV with some occasional conversation caressing my hand, but as the time ticks by, she's out cold. It's happened so many times I've lost count over these 15 years. Maybe had I not been married the first time, this wouldn't be such a big issue, but that's what I became accustomed too in a marriage was frequent and passionate, hot sex, mornings, afternoons, and nights. The last 15 years, the water has been running fairly C-O-L-D.
Now could I have initiated sex? Yes. And she would have been receptive as she normally is. But as I stated in my original posting, you get awfully tired of being the initiator in a sexual relationship with your wife. She typically initiates when she feels like maybe "it's time" (meaning a couple of weeks has gone by) either because I'm somewhat irritated which I don't show by anger, I just get to a point where I become more quiet and more business-like about stuff. It's not on purpose. I just get fed up with this same old pattern and begin to withdraw a bit. But I'm not rude or snappy. I just get more to myself. Needless to say, after last night, I was less than pleased but it's the same old pattern. My reality: I'm going to grow to be a very old man with a wife who has the sex drive of a 90 year old when she's 40. It's rather depressing to think about. What a great romantic future I have looking down the road 10 or 15 years! YIPPIE!
EEK, I'll take a look at your recommended reading. Thanks very much for your insights. I'm really getting desperate after tolerating this pattern for so many years. She's a wonderful person and a great mother. But she's got nothing going sexually in the initiative department. She has a band-aid approach to sex. Fix it today if it needs fixing. But otherwise, she isn't too interested.
[QUOTE=Brandye;259392]In many (most?) relationships there are some differences in sex drive. Most commonly that the man wants a bit more than the woman (not always). A healthy relationship requires constant compromise in all things to satisfy each partner with equitable trade-offs across all areas of interest. You two have gotten away from this and tensions result. You are to be commended for talking. Now, perhaps, it is time to talk with some professional assistance. Most counselors will tell you that sex is as often a symptom of real problems as it is the real problem itself.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Brandye. I agree that marriage is compromise. Successful marriages are all about giving most of the time and taking very little of the time I believe. I work in the criminal justice field so I deal with a lot of lousy marriages, terrible relationships, etc. My feeling, and I've tried to be very objective about this . . . I've been the one compromising by just letting the issue go for 15 long years. But reality for me is that it remains a problem.
Men connect through sex. That's how I'm wired as well. When we have sex, the cosmos is in perfect order. All is good for that short period of time and immediately afterward. I'm able to leave the daily grind and frustrations alone for that small snap-shot of time and just connect with her on a level I don't want to have with anyone else in the universe. So when her attention is on some lame reality TV show or she's talking to me about our daughter's softball team performance at that particular moment, and mine is on us connecting and being into one another, it shows we are worlds apart.
So she got 3 hours of wholesome, quality reality TV last night and I got the same as I normally get. A missed chance to connect with the woman I love and that I'm very fond of, but feel like I'm a universe apart from most of the time.
Reread this: Sex is often the symptom of a deeper issue and not the issue itself. You are focused on getting the sex set straight; I am suggesting you need help to find the real problem, especially with your further description of "dressing down" and so on.
[quote]Men connect through sex. That's how I'm wired as well. When we have sex, the cosmos is in perfect order. All is good for that short period of time and immediately afterward. I'm able to leave the daily grind and frustrations alone for that small snap-shot of time and just connect with her on a level I don't want to have with anyone else in the universe.
So she got 3 hours of wholesome, quality reality TV last night and I got the same as I normally get. A missed chance to connect with the woman I love and that I'm very fond of, but feel like I'm a universe apart from most of the time.[/quote]
I'm unable to give you any additional advice other than what others have allready been posting. Just wanted to share that your above quote is fascinating; it resembles how I'd describe sex :) Though I wouldn't call it the only connection; it truly seems to be the deepest. And really: how I feel when turned down and when sex is the last thing on his priority list; again and again and again... :( Iow: you're certainly not the only one. But I'm not in such a long lasting relationship as you are. And the reasons for my bf's low sex drive are mostly due to healthissues combined with poor stress/timemanagement (roughly speaking). Your wife's reasons seem not as straightforward, but you've got some great advice on where to look. So just let me add that I wish you luck and love!
[QUOTE=RedRoses;259411]I'm unable to give you any additional advice other than what others have allready been posting. Just wanted to share that your above quote is fascinating; it resembles how I'd describe sex :) Though I wouldn't call it the only connection; it truly seems to be the deepest. And really: how I feel when turned down and when sex is the last thing on his priority list; again and again and again... :( Iow: you're certainly not the only one. But I'm not in such a long lasting relationship as you are. And the reasons for my bf's low sex drive are mostly due to healthissues combined with poor stress/timemanagement (roughly speaking). Your wife's reasons seem not as straightforward, but you've got some great advice on where to look. So just let me add that I wish you luck and love![/QUOTE]
Brandye, perhaps it is something "deeper going on" however I have brought that up and asked her a few times over the years asking her to just tell me what's on her mind or her heart when this subject comes up. She says there is no other issue, that she loves me, and that everything is fine as far as she's concerned, and off the top of my head I'm inclined to agree with her, although seeing a marriage counselor might reveal something she's holding back from me, or isn't aware that she's holding back . . . hard to say.
RedRoses, thanks for your reply and your insight. It's nice that someone else relates to how I feel about the sexual experience with that ONE special person. For me, sex isn't just a physical act of mutual foreplay followed by two orgasms and off to sleep. It's the unique and wonderful feeling that I'm chosen to satisfy her needs. Out of 6 billion people on the planet, that's a very special relationship that I'm privileged to be able to do that for her. It's as you state, "not the only connection" but I'm sure you'd agree that it is probably the most intense and passionate connection that there is between two individuals within the human species. I don't know about you, but sex before falling asleep in each others arms transfers right over to the next morning and the next day for me. It has a profound affect on how I see everything else around me. All is good with the world when things are good there.
It's difficult for me because I do rough calculations in my head of the hours of TV she'll watch and the other things she does with her time and then I ask myself, is sex three times a week for 60 to 90 minutes each time really too much to expect? Isn't it supposed to be important enough for us to try to mutually reach out and connect physically that often? Should I care that she puts some remote reality TV show in front of our passion time together?
When she displays little to zero interest it's very tough for me. A big part of what gets me turned on is seeing her turned on by whatever I can do to please her. If you have a partner who has no immediate sexual needs for you to satisfy, you end up feeling very obsolete, overlooked, and taking for granted, which explains my passive-aggressive feelings about her over the past 15 years. Thanks for relating to my situation. I'm sorry to hear your boyfriend has some health issues. Those can be difficult on a relationship, particularly in the sexual arena. If you need any male insights, shoot me a message.
For my part sex is not just sex - not when it is with someone you love for then sex becomes a glorious conflagration of souls joyously reaffirming life itself - and who WOULDN'T want to share in that?!?!?
Yes, sex itself is great but sex with between those who love each other is AWESOME! Truly!
So what's holding her back?
I realise you may not be a poet but if you were to describe how sex FEELS to you (in terms similar to those I used above) and ask her how sex FEELS to her and then ask - wouldn't she like to feel that way more often - do you think that would help open her mind up a bit more?
OR you could try The Program yourself and be more demanding (nonviolently, of course) that she take the lead and do the body worshipping etc and so forth. It is entirely possible to dominate without violence. I have dubbed this sort of domination - beguiling and it is the method I use to dominate men.
Hi evening rendevoux
I will agree with others when they recommend getting your wife's hormone levels checked. I recently got on new medication to decrease my testosterone levels and surprisingly my sex drive has increased, even though the side effects are usually lowered sex drive. Who knows? Perhaps your wife is more sensitive to the effects of certain hormones than others, and this causes her lowered sex drive.
Just keep the communication going and keep letting her know that you enjoyed when she initiated sex for one month.
Ok, here it is flat out: You two need to see a marriage therapist. Addressing the sex is now an irritant for her and even she does not know what the underlying issue may be.
My first reaction is that you bring up the comparison to your first wife a heck of a lot. Is it possible your current wife is perceiving pressure here that you don't realize you're placing? Have you made this comparison in conversation with her? I'm not accusing, I'm floating a possibility.
My next thought is, you say that if it's been a couple weeks, she gets the hint from your relative silence and initiates. If you honestly believe that's only for you and not for her, you're either nuts. It's for her, it's just not for her libido. She feels your anger and needs to find a way to get the peace back in her life. Trust me, I know, I'm an appeaser in every day life. The way to a woman's true libido instead of appeasement sex, is through patience and positive reinforcement, not anger.
If she lacks confidence in her ability to flirt, what makes you think she thinks she knows what she's doing in the sack? One thing you could try is initiating, but not moving beyond a certain point of foreplay until she gets so frustrated she moves things forward. This, while needing some patience, will help build her confidence. Tease her a little bit verbally, asking what she wants, T sometimes uses "what are you gonna do about it?" I make these suggestions from experience because it worked on me.
No, the sex issue is not an irritant for her Brandye. She doesn't dislike sex or for that matter, ever say no when I bring it up. My point is she could go forever without it if I didn't initiate it or bring it up and that leaves me feeling like I'm the only one who needs that connection. She's very in to it once I begin to touch her or caress her. The physical juices are flowing within a short time once I touch her in any way. I'm just looking for some balance where she is turned on by the idea of sex long before it happens as I am with her.
Maybe I'm just stuck with things the way they are.
No - that would be classified under attitude issues - either between them, within him or within her. A healthy, sexually aware woman desires her mate - therefore if she doesn't - something's up.
... and you insist on rejecting the notion that this is a symptom and not the problem. If you want to be your own therapist, go ahead, but do not bother others with questions the answers to which you want to reject.
The problem isn't that she doesn't enjoy sex - the problem is she doesn't NEED sex as frequently as her husband and never initiates sex.
Hormones (medical issues) and/or her policies (what she thinks about sex - attitude issues) are the two main causes of this.
Evening,
When you first started dating did she chase you around the couch trying to get in your pants?
If she did then you have problems.
When you talked she told you she wants to be dominated. I think she might be trying to open up to you.
She wants YOU to sweep her off her feet. She wants you to desire her. She want you to show her you want and need her.
I went through something similar.
If you don't just maybe someone else will. She lost 30 lbs while working her new job.
She knows she is desirable,but gives you a mercy xxxx every two weeks because your feelings are hurt. Open your eyes man. You will lose her to someone that shows they desire her. There are two sides to every story.
Please don't take offense because none was intended.
Good Luck
She wants romance not sex! Big difference! She wants you to take her out to eat and go out and some fun. Woman get sick of just having sex they want romance and excitement once in awhile.
You should try sometime soon. Just take here out to eat and to a club have a few drinks an have fun. Then sex will come with it.
LOL, no tt, she wants sex AND romance!! Stop hiding your prowess, gentlemen!
Evil,
I wrote the first post and meant what I said.
My wife made the second. Just to clarify.
Nice Butt!:)
[QUOTE=tt1969;261117]Evening,
When you first started dating did she chase you around the couch trying to get in your pants?
If she did then you have problems.
When you talked she told you she wants to be dominated. I think she might be trying to open up to you.
She wants YOU to sweep her off her feet. She wants you to desire her. She want you to show her you want and need her.
I went through something similar.
If you don't just maybe someone else will. She lost 30 lbs while working her new job.
She knows she is desirable,but gives you a mercy xxxx every two weeks because your feelings are hurt. Open your eyes man. You will lose her to someone that shows they desire her. There are two sides to every story.
Please don't take offense because none was intended.
Good Luck[/QUOTE]
tt1969,
Just getting back to you now albeit kind of late. She knows I desire her. I tell her as much and often. I can't imagine she can't know that. And her own self-esteem seems really bad. I think it goes back to her youth. She just assumed because she didn't have the perfect female figure she wasn't ever going to attract the right man. She's not physically perfect but neither am I. I desire her as she is and she knows that. It's one of two things. She either is using her self-image issues as an excuse to avoid sex as often as I'd like it, or those self-image issues are in fact real. I simply don't know for sure. As for the romance part, we haven't done that a lot mostly due to paying off debts and such but even when we have gone out together, I don't know that this entices her to feel more romantic toward me. It may be something I have to try but the problem has continued as of this posting and it's nearly a year later. I'm really at that point where I'm spent on the issue. I love her and I'd do whatever it takes to get her to come aboard the love boat with me, but I feel like I've exhausted most every avenue. I'm without any new ideas.
Paying off debts? Hey! Romance does not need to cost money!
think PICNIC
think Day at the Beach
think Twin deck chairs on the back porch/deck/backyard watching the sun go down while Janis sings Summertime on the box
Jeez!
Heck - crank up the tunes and dance with her in the living room - making it up as you go along!
MAKE LIFE FUN AGAIN!