One big difference that caused(s) tension between myself and my ex is that while we were on breaks, she'd have sex with other guys. when i was talking to her about one time when this happened right as we were starting to patch things up and work toward getting back together, she said it was meaningless and simply for the feel of it.
i haven't had sex with many people, so that may be part of what's guiding my thoughts and feelings on this issue, but i find it so hard to grasp how someone, her in particular, can have sex and not have it mean something. This is one of the biggest issues i need to address and get over if things are to work anytime in the future between her and myself (i don't mean i'm going to accept it if she sleeps with someone while we're together, but i still can't get over the few times it's happened while we were apart). it's hard for me to imagine being intimate with her and putting my emotions into it when she could( but not necessarily would) be feeling nothing from it. I'm just looking for insight into this issue. since this board has a wide variety of people i'm sure there'll be a broad range of ideas on the issue
Hi all..sorry to have pulled a bit off the subject of Vagabond's issues, but i wanted to just shine some light on other "sources" of such behaviour!
That said, never underestimate the stress-reductive/diversionary/search-for-self-worth power of sex!
What does all that mean? Well, there are many people who use sex as a way of validating who they are. That, in their mind, they can say, "See, you don't need , this guy thinks i'm attractive."
It's a way to self-validate, forget and justify irrational feelings of low self-esteem.
The irory of this behaviour is that it creates a spiral of feelings and actions that are tough to stop!
Someone has sex with someone they like, they think it's love but it's really just infatuation....they equate sex with love, but only 1/2 of the couple sees it that way....they break up! The person who thougth he/she did it because of love, now feels heartbroken and thinks it must be something she/he did to make that other person NOT love them. So, he/she finds another person to have sex with to see if it's love or sex....no matter how it works out...the emotional toll of sex vs. love is tough to handle.
It sucks, but really, the only answer is TIME and growing up!
There are so many feelings, emotions and change going on in both your lives that searching for "the one" can be daunting!
You really can't "help" a person like your gal friend. She has to figure it out on her own! She has to LOVE HERSELF first before she can really love someone else. ANd if she's using sex as a "validation" action, then it's going to be tough down the road for her to look at sex as an outward expression of a deep love with someone!
You have to decide how "invested" you want to be in her life, and always knowing she may NEVER truely love u the way u love her!
Vaga dude,I give you this advice out of my own experience with this SAME EXACT situation. I went back to the girl after she had sex with two other dudes,and the last time I was went with her we were together for a lil' over a year.I didnt even get to have sex with her then.And here's the icing on the cake.A week after we broke up recently,she found it so easy to have sex with two other dudes!!Of course I still loved her but after those acts,I knew that I wasn't the one for her.I picked up on the hints.
[QUOTE=Quote ]What exactly does she have to fear with you?If after the amount of time you two have been together doesn't reassure her when she's with you,then what exactly would do it?[/QUOTE]
There are two answers to this question...
For one thing, she fears commitment in general. It annoys the hell out of me, but she's afraid of missing out on something.
The other more complicated part has to do with a chain of events. Back in November, as we were trying to deal with stuff in the relationship, I brought a different girl to my Navy Fall Ball, and was under the impression that I had feelings for her after the night we had. This caused a break-up between myself and my ex. Then after Christmas break we were talking to each other again. She was unsure of her feelings for me. She loved me, but she didn't know to what extent. I however was sure of my love, sure she was the only one. Then one night at a party I got belligerently drunk and ended up flirting and kissing another girl right in front of my ex. so i wasn't sure as far as she was concerned. So that's basically why she's afraid and unsure if she wants to commit.
we feel it has relevance, because you.. like flogging a dead horse, and it oculd just be her way of showing you she DOESNT WANT a relationship or she just wants to dick around... some girls just do that it makes them feel Free no committments.. no Rules.. no regulations just nights of FUN.
What exactly does she have to fear with you?If after the amount of time you two have been together doesn't reassure her when she's with you,then what exactly would do it?
what i'm looking for is an understanding of the mindset that sex can be emotionless or "meaningless" as it was when she was with the one guy recently. i don't know if i can do that without going out and having tons of one night stands and other "meaningless" sexual encounters myself. and even then i don't know if i'll be able to understand it. I have no doubt in my mind that when she and i are together as a couple she will be willing and able to be monogamous. and i still believe at the moment we will be getting back together at some point. she has to overcome some fears concerning relationships and commitment first, but from talking to her and spending time with her i feel her feelings being similar to mine at this point. For the moment i plan on simply disregarding the posts telling me to "get over it". and i plan on being rather stubborn about it. in that respect, it would seem rawbob's posts about genetic dispositions would be more relevant to the topic than the last post or lady's post, even though they don't explain my ex's disposition to enjoy casual sex.
When did this turn into a discussion about genetic codes?I thought we were supposed to be helping Vaga get over his ex's inabilty to be committed to him?Frankly,Vaga,I dont think she will want to be "just yours" anymore.Dude,it's like you need a woman who is willing to consider your feelings and to keep you in her heart always.Doesn't sound like this one is like that.So just go and find one who is willing to do so.It may be hard,but when she is found it will be well worth it.It was for me anyways.
Females are also genetically encoded with the desire to have "ideal" offspring!
In my earlier post, i talked about how men are genetically pre-disposed to want to "spread their seed".... i found it ironic that just a couple days later ..NOVA had a story about how women too will have the desire to give birth to offsping who will have a better chance at survial.
What does that mean, well, many divorced women surveyed commented that their Xhubby was "not the man i thought he was".....now much of divorces in the US are based on sex and money.....but upon further interview, many single women look at the size of a man, his abilty to make a safe and secure home for the children, overall health, etc were all subconscious decisions going into her decision to mate!
So while men are genetically predisposed to spread their seed, women are predisposed to select the actual "father" of her children!
So, for much of the human race, sex without emotion is as much about procreation as it is emotion! Cool stuff, eh?
Vega, again.. i dont know how to tell you this.. i tried kinda not being severely blunt about it.. but Dude.. Get over it.
Serious, you and i BOTH know.. she wont change, and isnt willing to, i think for you it was one of those "young love" things.. but hey.. it isnt what she wants, and if one person doesnt want it the other wont, with that person.. and you are wasting your time.. i dont see how all of this can be confusing.. maybe you need to do it to help your self get over it.. or let it go.. or whatever you wanna say its doing.. I dont know... you will never figure out WHY she does what she does.. or thinks what she thinks.. you just get the out come..
"We do see a lot more younger girls now, though, exploring their sexuality before marriage and kids, so the tides are turning in some of today's youth."
In some!!Try almost 80%(ok,maybe not that exact figure,but it really feels like it) of the girls today have had sex before the age of 14.I have had many a conversation with younger ladies and they talk like they were a Jenna Jameson stand-in or something.They actually brag about how well they can please a man in bed.And this comes from 14-16 yr.olds!I'm 19 and I wished that I couldve encountered these girls when I was just reaching puberty,it would have mad things easier on me nowadays.
Tessie, I think your post was very insightful and makes so much sense! It's so true. As young girls they want a boyfriend, to get married, have kdis, etc., there is sometimes not time for the other stuff.
Then they get that all done and are like "hey, where's my fun??"
We do see a lot more younger girls now, though, exploring their sexuality before marriage and kids, so the tides are turning in some of today's youth.
[QUOTE=Quote (vagabondprince @ Jan. 28 2005,09:33)]That's probably true, but you're talking about a male's genetic encoding. A female doesn't mate with several males, she goes for the strongest one so that she'll have the strongest offspring. So based on that women would not be predisposed to do that same thing.[/QUOTE]
I would agree that for younger women. They are "Usually" programed to want to find a mate to help raise her childern. Therefore we don't need multiple partners and are busy with raising a family.
Now when a woman is mature and no longer interested in breeding she is able to turn her attention to her own sexual pleasures and then I would say becomes much more like a man. That is not to say she needs many partners but is likely to just want to explore her sexuality in greater detail.
[QUOTE=Quote (Rawbob @ Jan. 28 2005,11:44)]We belive that no matter how much we try to deny it, men are genetically pre-disposed to attempt to spread their seed to as many willing recipients as possible. I belive this coding goes down to the DNA level - it's encoded in who we are.[/QUOTE]
That's probably true, but you're talking about a male's genetic encoding. A female doesn't mate with several males, she goes for the strongest one so that she'll have the strongest offspring. So based on that women would not be predisposed to do that same thing.
that idea simply struck me as something i should comment on. thanks for the responses, i'm still mulling over my thoughts, considering what everybody said, trying to figure out what my thoughts and feelings about the whole matter is.
Hi Vagabond.....something hit me when i was reading this thread....could you perhaps be wondering if she thinks the same thing about the sex with u? That she's just going thru the motions and it's really meaningless?
As far as emotionless sex, all you have to do is look at the oldest profession known to man: Prostitution. Since the dawn of time, men and women have engaged in sex for non-procreation reasons - for just the feeling of the sex not the emotions.
Now, i have to confess, we are not monogamous (my partner and i have very clear rules for this). We belive that no matter how much we try to deny it, men are genetically pre-disposed to attempt to spread their seed to as many willing recipients as possible. I belive this coding goes down to the DNA level - it's encoded in who we are.
Some men are able to resist this, but most who do seem to be always struggling with their decision.
Oh, and a 50% divorce rate for new marriages, 75% divorce rate for 2nd marriage tell us that we as a species struggle with being tied 100% to just one person.
I have come to accept the fact that love is love, and sex is sex....sex and love combined are clearly better, more healthy and more balanced..but millions of years of history just bear out the fact that monogamy or sex w/o love/fellings is rampant and very very common!
i think what he meant by meaningless was no emotional feelings involved, just physical. i know that's common with high school students, not that i'm comparing her to them, it's just what i'm fimilar with. or maybe it was just my school.
anyway, like everyone else said, it's up to you, whether you think you'll be able to handle that while you're with her. it's always going to be in the back of your mind. i hope things work out for you.
I often wonder how sex can be "Meaningless"...sex should mean pleasure, so unless we're talking about rape (and even then, ONE of the parties is probably having a great time) all sex meanssomething.
This obsession to attach any kind of romantic/marital commitment to sex is quite unhealthy. Having a fvck buddy is fantastic, and need not ever lead to talk of engagements, kids or whatnot.
As for Vaga, I'd echo the advice already given, either accept her for what she is, or reject her. Either way, I doubt she'll change for you, so you have to make or break. If you put a ring on her finger, you have the right to demand she never spread her legs for another guy again.
Until or unless you do that, you'd better get used to the probability that she will do exactly that. Not saying that a ring nowadays is any guarantee that a woman won't cheat, but I hope you know what you have to do - or not do.
Jaybee.
Right on the money emoney! Great post!
Vaga, I more than feel what you are going through.I know this situation all too welll.I also beleive it has something to do with the fact that I was a virgin before her and I was always lost on the fact that she had several sex partners with whom she claimed she never loved,but I was supposed to be her first love.She claimed they were all out of lust and no real feelings were involved.I have never had sex without building some kind of emotional connection with that specific woman. I think you feel like "how can she just do what I hold so near and dear to my heart and its something so special that I only want to be shared between us?"She does it because she thinks that no matter how much sex she has with other men, you will always be her emotional rock and it probably will NEVER mean as much as it does between you two as when she just has sex with those other guys.Like its been said, she justs "wants to get a nut off."
As far as getting over it,I dont think you will for a long time to come.I know it would be hard for me to imagine all the faces that she makes when I am inside of her,with other dudes.You have to make a choice-either love her knowing that other men have been inside of her or let her go-Period.
Ok...first i wanted to say thanks to wally for once again misreading a post of mine and jumping to conclusions to the wrong problem.
[QUOTE=Quote (demonbuttercup @ Jan. 26 2005,11:40)]I get what you are saying Vaga.
Wally they weren't technically broken up or split up. If you had been keeping up w/ his situation, you'd know this. Basically over the summer, since they wouldn't be seeing each other as much as they would while they were in school, she pretty much told him, yeah I'll probably end up hooking up over the summer.....just so ya know. Big difference I think.[/QUOTE]
basically i'm just trying to understand the mindset behind what she does. i'm not accusing her of anything. yes, like you do demonbuttercup, part of me kind of considers it cheating too, but though we weren't apart we weren't technically together either, and i was just wondering how she could do that with someone else and still have feelings for me (because though there have been times when she wasn't sure of her feelings, at least this last time when she did the guy, she did express she had feelings of love toward me)
Yes, it is hard to understand why people have meaningless sex. You are not wrong to wonder that. And it is your right. You're allowed to ask questions. Why the heck wouldn't you be able to? You care for her!
Sometimes they do it just because they are lonely or whatever. Some do it because they have lost self respect and are looking for people to make them feel worthwhile. In the end meaningless sex doesn't feel all that great. Well, at least it didn't to me. i went through my wild phase when I got divorced and had casual sex. It was not nearly as good as when I dated and got to know someone and be comfortable with them. And it always felt wrong afterwards. Like empty. At least to me anyways.
I know not all women are like me and I'm not judging people, because I've had my past too! But that is the way I felt. If that helps! I hope it does!
Well, Prince, you got me thinking - about myself. Initial reaction is "never." But I did, in my university days, go through a period of promiscuity. I usually felt crappy and went for more to prove myself worthwhile. Not a nice place to have been. This was triggered by being dumped by the leading lesbian activist on campus, so I "proved" I was no longer one of them! Fortunately, I graduated, moved on and got that time of my life into focus. I have no fond memories of that but certainly did learn a good bit.
During two very healthy heterosexual relationships, we both stayed on the straight and narrow and that felt much better. The second was leading toward marriage until his death in Kosovo. He, too, was a doctor - we had met in Canada doing post-doc studies.
Today, I like to think of myself as monogamous but, with a bi-sexual, woman partner, we each have occasional need for some penis time. The rules are clear, obeyed strictly and we are aware of the risks that either of us may decide to return to our heterosexual paths. The infrequent sex with men is not without feeling. They are not strangers; I grew up with one and have known the other for many years. But, the fact remains, they represent mostly physical pleasure.
I sympathize with your position and would seriously question continuing in that relationship. I suspect she feels towards herself much worse than you do. It is too bad that too many of us, men and women, try to use sex to prove our worth to ourselves.
never mind
I get what you are saying Vaga.
Wally they weren't technically broken up or split up. If you had been keeping up w/ his situation, you'd know this. Basically over the summer, since they wouldn't be seeing each other as much as they would while they were in school, she pretty much told him, yeah I'll probably end up hooking up over the summer.....just so ya know. Big difference I think.
One can say, well at least she was forthright about her cheating ever before she did it. I still think it was cheating, but whatever!
I've only had sex w/ one guy, and he was my b/f for awhile so I don't really have a basis to go on. I have been w/ guys tho that I liked as friends but weren't very attracted too, and didn't want to do anything sexual w/ them.
I also had this guy once and we'd only hungout maybe 2 times. The first and second times were crazy makeout sessions. Yeah, I didn't know him very well, but I did.... does that make sense? sort of that "connection" you have when you first meet people. Due to circumstance, we never got to hang out that 3rd time, which Im pretty confident would have ended up w/ us having sex. Although I didn't know him long I was definitly starting to have feelings for him. Like I thought about him a lot, etc. I missed him when he was gone and I no longer got to see him. So yeah, if I'd had sex w/ him those feelings would have been even stronger.
Not sure if that helped you any, LOL.
You know I at least try!
another thing.... I also thought about the double standard which goes along w/ this in that its not unusual to think that guys separate sex and love, yet this is uncommon for women.
I dunno, not to say women don't do this, but not as much I guess. Personally speaking I'd have to have both. Not specifically "love", but some sort of friendship, feelings, etc.
You know, sometimes knowing the right questions is more important than knowing the right answers.
Since this happened while you were "apart," I think the more valid (important) question that needs answering is "Why is this such an issue for you?"
The one thing in your post that really strikes me is "This is one of the biggest issues I need to address..." You have that right; it's your issue.
I'll probably be overstating this, but I think not much.
What possible basis is there for you expecting her to behave the way you think she should - especially when you're not a couple?! Why she did it has nothing to do with your ability to accept it and the way you have phrased the question is more than a bit judgemental on your part.
When you confronted her about it (even though it was well outside your right), would you have preferred she reply, "Oh, Man, it was great! I never felt so connected to a guy as that... I came 12 times!" Of course she's going to say it was meaningless! She's being polite!
Perspective? When people masturbate they don't do it because they are having a meaningful and deeply loving relatonship with themselves. They do it to have an orgasm - or at least enjoy the feelings it creates.
She is apparently capable of enjoying sex in many forms. I say, "Hooray for her!"