[QUOTE=dancingdoc2;186206]I really dislike a "meat and potatoes" "cut and dried" approach to things.

I can tell from your location on Pluto that your ideas a way out there.

To each his/her own......[/QUOTE]

LOL I didn't know they had the internet there :rolleyes:

Oh and you are welcome for the links :)

I think you could compare the arm thing to the Hymen since they are both "body parts"
But then virginity is an act.
I mean one article and like Doc said in some cultures... just having a Hymen makes you a virgin...so if a girl lost her due to horseback riding...or was born w/out one or a thin one...then she is not a virgin even though a penis has never been in her.

I am not sure if surferdude is having to deal w/ this personally w/ a g/f or sister or whatever... but from what I have seen/read, women of rape/assault already have this mentality that they are dirty and their bodies tainted. So even if you want to say "yes technically, you are no longer a virgin" That's basically saying, yes you are no longer pure and might as well have slept w/ many guys... I mean that's how it comes across. Not you particularly just that pov.

So if the answer is all relevant to really how to define virginity...then I guess she can think how she wants to :)

[QUOTE=surferdude;186231]No offense to anyone on here but can u stop saying she and her, guys can be raped too and in this case it was a guy.[/QUOTE]

Very important information which you neglected to mention. However, it doesn't change my opinion.

Try Here

I would say yes she would still be a virgin.

As f*cked up as it is, I'd have to say no. Virginity isn't a state of mind, it's physical. If someone cuts off your arm, it's gone. If you wanted it to happen or not, is irrelevant. You're still missing an arm.

Good article

I mean it's not as black/white as you put it, I don't think.

So therefore a girl who was raped when she was like 12 and then has a boyfriend at 18 has no "virginity" to give to him?

i had a forced sexual experience before having sex...the first guy i did have sex with still saw me as a virgin...

I would have to say that technically, she is not a virgin in body, but she is a virgin in mind. Remember that there are two states of existence - physical and mental. Perhaps it's an inbetween state?

[QUOTE=demonbuttercup;186156]Good article

I mean it's not as black/white as you put it, I don't think.

So therefore a girl who was raped when she was like 12 and then has a boyfriend at 18 has no "virginity" to give to him?[/QUOTE]

Like I said, it's f*cked up, but no, she doesn't. Virginity has nothing to do with the circumstances of intercourse. In the act of intercourse itself, virginity is lost. If not, then every person who regretted certain sexual partners, could dismiss the encounter. If you've slept with 10 people, but you only liked 5 of them, could you say that you've only slept with 5 people? Where is the line drawn?

You are right it is F'd up and yes if you speak "scientifically" then she's not a virgin...but the definition is sexual intercourse, not sexual assault.

The line is drawn b/c there is a big difference between regret and someone forcing themself on you. You might regret it the next morning...but at that time and moment... you are allowing it to happen, you have a say in the matter.

The arm comparison doesn't work either unless you are defining virginity as w/ a hymen..which as we all know can be broken by other means than sex.

[QUOTE=cjb1981;186161]Like I said, it's f*cked up, but no, she doesn't. Virginity has nothing to do with the circumstances of intercourse. In the act of intercourse itself, virginity is lost. If not, then every person who regretted certain sexual partners, could dismiss the encounter. If you've slept with 10 people, but you only liked 5 of them, could you say that you've only slept with 5 people? Where is the line drawn?[/QUOTE]

Simple. Just because you regret it doesnt mean that you didnt want to at the time. rape is non-consensual sex. if you sleep with someone and regret it, you did consent to and you did want to in the first place. so you cant say oh man i didnt sleep with him, because you did and you wanted too, its just that the next morning you changed your mind. rape there was no decision to make it was forced. so there is a difference. if you didnt want to (rape) you still have it if you did want to no matter how much you regret afterwards (consensual) its gone.

Demnobuttercup, you said that it wasn't black and white as I was making it out to be. The thing I said about regretting sexual partners was just to see how "gray" your terms are. I am just speaking scientifically, and from a physical standpoint, I still don't see how she could be considered a virgin. Once a penis has entered the vagina, it's happened. There is no taking that back, voluntary or otherwise. Emotionally, that is a very different thing. I wasn't taking that into consideration when I gave my opinion. I was just trying to make the argument for the text book, physical definition. Obviously there is a huge difference between having something taken from you, and willingly giving it to another person. Physically, what's done is done, but emotionally I agree that she could consider herself to be a virgin, all be it, physically she's not.

Demonbuttercup! Thank you for finding and posting these two very informative links.

I have replied to several threads over the years concerning the definition of virginity. My replies always mentioned the Middle Eastern position contrasted with the more realistic position and definition of Western cultures--that being that we take her word for her status.

I am happy to have these two references for additional credibility and as a discussion that will hopefully get people to view the matter with a much more open mind.

I hate to say it, but the guy who said she's not a virgin is right. It's a physics thing, not a mental issue. His cut-off arm example was right on.
Whether you want it to be or not, it's still gone.

I really dislike a "meat and potatoes" "cut and dried" approach to things.

I can tell from your location on Pluto that your ideas a way out there.

To each his/her own......

Um, that would be physiology, not physics. Unless you are concerned about the trajectory of penetration.

Well, that really depends on the definition of “virginity.”

It used to be that the virginity was defined by the presence of an intact hymen. But now that we know that the hymen can be broken through other activities, it's hard to logically consider the hymen to be the single definitive indication of virginity- if a thirteen-year-old equestrian broke her hymen riding (as one of my mentors in the horse world did) would it be said that she had lost her virginity to a horse? Though she had never had any sexual contact in the past, would she not be considered a virgin?

Because of the possible false-negative result of this litmus test as well as the lack of a corresponding physical “indicator” in the male section of the population, it seems that many people these days consider virginity to be a mental state. It’s now also more popular to differentiate between oral, vaginal, and anal virginities, now that the former and latter varieties of sex are more publically discussed. (Not to say that they didn't occur years ago; you have only to read the first few pages of the works of the Marquis de Sade to know that types of sex your mother would be shocked about, have been practiced for years. And the Marquis was hardly the first, either! The Kama Sutra and other such texts mention oral sex and given the presence of vaginal vorarephilia in old Japanese artwork, I’m sure that anal sex- vanilla in comparison- has long been in the repertoire of skills of those practicing the world’s second-oldest profession.) In any case, because of the illogic of the hymen test and the many different types of sex out there, it’s not uncommon to hear talk of one being a virgin despite being well-experienced in other methods. This has caused some people to revise their personal definitions of virginity to sexual contact between one person’s genitalia and another’s body, thus eliminating the hymen question and including anal and oral sex as well as mutual masturbation. Or they say it much more simply: “A virgin is a person who has never had sex.” (Of course then that opens up a whole different can of worms, which is: “What do you consider sex?” Penile-vaginal only, or any of the other entertaining varieties? But that’s beside the point.) This also assumes consent: “sex” rather than “rape” or “sexual contact”. By allowing all this interpretation over what, exactly, constitutes virginity, it’s easy enough to decide that virginity is a mental state, defined by its bearer’s perceptions. “Although I have given fellatio/cunnilingus, I am still a virgin, because I have not had penetrative sex,” or whatnot.

So, if virginity can be considered to be a definition based on a mental state rather than a physical one, you could say, “Yes, someone who has been raped is still a virgin, because s/he did not consent to sex, but instead was forced.” That person could then say, “Yes, I have been penetrated sexually, but because I did not consent to it, I am still mentally pure and virginal.”

Thus the answer to your question is, "Only if you think so."

well physically for boys you are no different before and after and for a girl unless her hymen is still intact which is unlikely there will not be that much physical change, physically she/he may not be a virgin but I think that someone that has been forced/rapped should be free to consider her/himself as a virgin in fact that first experience of loosing it will be much more important than to the usual person because of the past trauma and it will be much more of an undertaking to give yourself to someone after being raped so i think it is just to still consider him/her a virgin, physically there will be little if no difference physically and certainly none that will show nowadays loosing your virginity is more of an emotional experience than busting your hymen

A females hymen has little do do with losing her virginity. As has been stated repeatedly, there are many different ways to "bust your hymen" horse back riding etc... I think that losing your virginity (male or female) happens at the point of penetration from a penis. Whether you are the person penetrated, or the person penetrating. If you have done either, you aren't a virgin. This is just my opinion, one not shared by most.

[QUOTE=surferdude;186231]No offense to anyone on here but can u stop saying she and her, guys can be raped too and in this case it was a guy.[/QUOTE]

Sorry we "assumed" but since you didn't clarify and the majority of rapes occur against a woman...then that is what I went w/.

I mean we can debate on this b/c ok in the case that it was a guy. Say the guy was anally raped, but his penis has never been in a vagina... is he still a virgin?
Is a girl who willingly has anal sex w/ her b/f so she can consider herself still a "virgin" really still a virgin?

Justagirl made a good point that now there is oral,vaginal, and anal virginities it seems.

i hate fuc*ers like that a$$ holes anyway i say if you think you should still be a virgin your still are still one if you dont i say your not your choice not ours we will all disagree :p

Virginity has nothing to do with relationships and everything to do with mechanics. If raped, you are no longer a virgin - period. Sorry, but there it is. Yes, if it is a male being raped - same deal.
Please seek counseling.