Bad Threads on Circumcision

[andremara]

Should I share this? The vitriolic response it’s sure to get will hopefully awaken the rational people here to the cowardly denial and intractable attitude we’re up against when we oppose circumcision. Sex isn’t amazing for me – my drive is certainly there as is my ability for emotional intimacy with my partner, but is always a let down physically, not because I don’t open my heart to my lover and release fully to her, not because I don’t have sensation on my penis, but because my sensations have been radically altered by circumcision, because the frenulum on me is only a 5mm sliver (frenulum being the most sensitive part of a cut man), and that’s an awfully small platform on which all sexual pleasure in my penis rides. My glans is not sensitive except painfully so after orgasm. I’m one person, but millions of boys are cut, some losing less, some more. I’ve spoken to dozens of men, read hundreds of research articles, have 15 years familiarity with the circumcision issue and have 2 years intensive learning about it. I deeply resent having a penis that’s damaged, and that’s not an easy thing for a man to admit to himself, much less to speak about in a public and partially unsympathetic audience. I don’t seek sympathy; it is vitally important, however, that men who are damaged have the courage to recognize it, acknowledge it, and even harder, to share it within society to help end the practice. Sharing publicly to add my voice and help end it is the only reason for my post today.
Here’s one man who believes his penis is not nearly all it could have been, as it was by design and in original form as given by nature and taken away by an arrogant, ignorant patriarchal medical establishment which believes their mark should be left on males and on woman doing to most natural thing of giving birth and turning that into a medical emergency. The easy tact some may take is to dismiss the laments of one possibly disturbed individual. Look deeper, explore further, read past the party line towed by so much American media, and you’ll begin to wonder if this crazy poster isn’t on to something.
This forum is about sex right? And sex is vitally important…to all of us, right? Sex is vitally important to MY happiness and there’s no need for me to prioritize other ‘more important’ things, because it’s a basic human experience that is valid, simply because it is. I hope I don’t have to belabor THAT point. My sexual life at least from the standpoint of my penis’s ability to sense pleasure, has been altered for the worse, and to those who point out that I can’t know what I’m talking about since I was cut less than 24hrs after being born ‘perfect’, I say to you simply that yes, I can know based on personal observation of the intensely sensitive piece of my frenulum that remains, and knowing basic penile anatomy (you all should educate yourself), realizing that there was a LOT more sensitivity in the frenulum, the frenular delta, and it’s adjoining ridged bands which were removed. ALL cut men have their ridged bands removed and I can only guess what that felt like, since I like every circumcised man, I don’t have any of that. Frenulums vary in how much are removed, leaving some men with a lot, some with a little, and some with none. I didn’t understand what was taken from me until I began reading about it; up to that point, I just thought things were ok, and that’s just how things were. I was naïve enough before learning about penile anatomy that the brown circumcision scar on my member was a normal part of my anatomy, never thinking anything was wrong with having scar tissue on my penis even after I learned what it was. It has taken me literally years to fully allow the damage I sustained to sink into my psyche. I am a highly intelligent, creative, emotionally aware male, and I don’t post this capriciously, and, since we’re on a sex forum, yes, this is fully relevant not as a sad tale of one man, but as a likely tale of millions of men who understandably don’t wish to think about this and who like me for most of my life, were completely ignorant of the normal anatomy and function for the male. The debate that starts at medicine misses the larger point implied by all the above – body parts are inherently sacred – yes, sacred - and to the good of their owner, that circumcision is a human rights abuse that permanently alters the sexual sensation of the penis by removing healthy body parts without consent, under great pain, and changes the dynamics during sex for both parties.

[moderator]

Brandye & Sera300,

I hold the mods responsible for allowing the hijacking and continued abuse of threads for a special interest group. If the mods (T&S) do not take action, I shall, by leaving a board that allows such abuse.

This thread was opened to discuss whether or not circumcision should be debated. Members that are against circumcision are posting their views on why it should be discussed, exactly what one would expect in such a thread... and others that are related to the topic. After reading through this thread a number of times, its clear that the majority of the posts contain well thought out arguments as to why circumcision should be fought.

In terms of holding us responsible for allowing this thread, and other discussions on whether or not circumcision is a good treatment, all I can say is thank you. Open discussion is the only way a topic such as this can be resolved...

Although we, and tons of members, appreciate the time you have spent on this board, threatening departure is not going to get anyone anywhere with us. In regards to this thread, let me remind you that you are the one that put the spotlight onto the elephant in the room.

Typical response of one who knows they are wrong and are not happy with it.

Pozzalone, although this is pretty much as professional of a response one could provide to being insulted, please just report the post containing the insults, and ignore these comments in your response. The replies make scrubbing the insults out much more difficult for us... and can set of a chain reaction if not dealt with in time...

Please rest assured that such behavior will not be tolerated; Brandye has received a warning for her last two posts in this thread...

Again, I kindly ask everyone to keep the discussion at an adult level.

[pozzolane]

Thanks Mod.

I will watch my knee jerk reactions. My apologies to all for any rude behavior on my behalf.

[BigKahuna]

In terms of holding us responsible for allowing this thread, and other discussions on whether or not circumcision is a good treatment, all I can say is thank you. Open discussion is the only way a topic such as this can be resolved...

Well put... Thanks guys!

[pozzolane]

Originally Posted by Wahoowa

um, yeah i did. babies are not having sex. the men on this board would've already been circumcised if they ever were going to be. arguing against this now is a bit of a moot point. you want routine circumcisions of infants to stop. go to a board on parenting.

I'm truely sorry I missed this earlier. For one thing, you've made a great case for the anti-circumcision movement and have not realized it. Babies are not having sex. That's a great point. So then all the medical arguments of circumcision reducing STD's, STI's and cervical cancer, is completely erroneous. Because we're not talking about fully/legally mature sexually active men making the decision to cut themselves. No. No, we're talking about it being forced on infants who wouldn't benefit from any of those things even IF they were legitimate cures for those problems (which they are not).

Furthermore, this statement I've quoted above was for why circumcision is, or should not be, a sexual issue due to babies not being sexually active. Note that this completely ignores the fact that not all circumcisions are done during infancy. It also ignores a plethora of research that has been done on how circumcision affects the sex lives of both men and women. If circumcision has no place in sexuality, tell that to the researchers who study just that. And also to the men (and women) who know better from personal experiences.

P.S.

Great respect and thanks to andremara for having the courage to share his personal experiences with this board.

[JustAGirl]

Never mind--realized I'd missed a few pages when responding. I'll have to get back to this thread when I have more than five minutes to post, but since while flipping through I saw Hugh's query about equine smegma, I can address that one pretty quickly no quotations or citations needed. The accumulations of smegma that provide the most trouble for horses are those occurring in a small pocket of skin close to the urethra; if they are left long enough, they solidify and cause extreme discomfort during urination. In the wild, the motion of the penis while breeding will dislodge enough smegma located in that particular area to keep most problems at bay. Smegma around the external surface of the penis will also be rubbed off during breeding. Is it foolproof? No, and mares in the wild do get infections from breeding that, if not caused by bacteria in smegma, can be exacerbated by it. That is the reason that breeding stallions are cleaned before and after each breeding. Geldings are routinely cleaned less for that reason and more to clear the area around the urethra, which reminds me that my own horse is due to be cleaned.

[oedipussy]

Originally Posted by ml66uk

We wouldn't even be having this discussion if it weren't for the fact that 19th century doctors thought that :
a) masturbation caused various physical and mental problems (including epilepsy, convulsions, paralysis, tubercolosis etc), and
b) circumcision stopped masturbation.

Both of those sound ridiculous today I know, but as well as the link that was posted earlier, you could also check out this:
A Short History of Circumcision in North America In the Physicians' Own Words

Thanks for the info - It's interesting, but what relevance does this have to the topic today? The only thing that it proves is that people that lived 100 years ago were deeply stupid. I already knew that. If these are the kind of trivial points that are going to be made, should I bring up the fact that the Nazis were anti-circumcision?

[oedipussy]

Originally Posted by moderator

Open discussion is the only way a topic such as this can be resolved...

Sounds great, but this isn't a topic that is ever going to be "resolved" - it's a matter of personal opinion only and could conceivably go on forever.

[sera300]

Originally Posted by oedipussy

Sounds great, but this isn't a topic that is ever going to be "resolved" - it's a matter of personal opinion only and could conceivably go on forever.

To the moderators:

I pretty much agree with Oedi and Brandye here. Why? It's irrelevant my personal beliefs of circumcision's since the matter only comes up when a young man posts here & wishes to find information.

I could see if we were running a parental education board that would be different. Furthermore, since in the US and other country's it's a personal point made within the home this thread serves no further interest. All points have been stated.

Bound by a license a Practitioner must inform adult or parent of their choices. Neither of us are allowed to go into a patients room and state a case against "Human Rights Violations". Informed choice and in some cases Implied consent must be followed by law.

[sera300]

Originally Posted by pozzolane

I call red herring and also ad hominem in the last line of the post. These are all problems, yes. But they are not the problems we are discussing. Nor does the human rights violation of subjecting infants to invasive surgery without their direct consent take anything away from the issues you addressed. Again, stay on topic or face being reported.

Stop the threats, you sound like an uneducated man who goes around forcing threats on people; fanatic. Who do you plan to call? The board police? Do you realize how absurd you sound? There are greater issues in the world than this. In the US a child/infant does not have such right to choose; only the parent does, and a physician does not have the right to choose for them. Again I will say, if you wish to change the US system go through legislation & congressional testimony committees, that is how you effectuate change.


Your arguments are merely sequential logic and in some areas ways to draw hypothesis, generally associated with Advanced Des. Structures & Des. Mathematics.

ML66 posted a well written informational piece for the board. Why not write one yourself such as men who have difficulty with an uncircumcised penis and how to proceed to correct the matter--non-surgically?

As far as practice of medicine, in the US, the procedure is still routinely performed. The majority of practitioner's which perform circumcisions are males.

As stated once before, separating men into two categories cut v. non & sharing their trauma, sexual experiences, etc. would be most beneficial for all those who read this board rather than arguing over an issue.

Andremara; Thank you for sharing your personal experiences. I assume this is your point:
Report a violationPosted by: andremara on Jan 28, 2008 11:58 AM. Knute Berger’s issue over Oregon’s circumcision decision focuses on the point that is most ...
www.crosscut.com/religion/10999/Oregon's+circumcision+decision:+Calling+Dr.+Freud/ - 167k - Cached - Similar pages

http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/adhom.html Do you see the issue with this argument?

"Incase it's misunderstood, we don't think that parents should have the right to cut parts off of their baby boys genitals. Therefore, this is NOT a parenting issue. It's a human rights issue. And therefore it's free to discuss everywhere as we are all humans and should all have rights. Especially rights to ones own body. If someone wants to be circumcised later in life when they can make that decision on their own, then all power to them. But never should it be acceptable to be forced apon someone. Especially an infant." --Pozzolane

****Who is the "we" you refer too that it's not a parents right rather an individual right? Perhaps then I can understand your point of view? Put differently, a grassroots organization or a country which does not perform such?

The reason I state it's now a parenting issue not a sex board topic is because men are already cut or not. Dealing with the fallout is what is relevant on the board how to fix a sex issue. Parenting issues deals with the matter before a choice is made. In the two other threads the OP's asked questions and found quite a fair amount of information and made their choices--as adults. Therefore, going to infant circumcision is of what value to a group of teens and adults here? Perhaps through your explains of such I can understand your point of view.

Positano is lovely is is not? http://www.google.it/custom?domains=...D%3A1%3B&hl=it

http://dictionary.reverso.net/englis...ian/circumcise

... argilla domestica ristrutturazione chiacchierio circumcision dissiperemo ...... orography appuntamento sibille pozzolane pinnotere manzoniana antemetici ...
www.mitopositano.it/piazza-mulini.htm - Similar pages

Your English is excellent & I thought highly of Malcom X!