Sibling Incest/Masturbation

[Guido]

ALL kids, as they grow up, have a natural interest in their own and other people's bodies. The bodies they are most likely to come into contact with are their own and those of their close family. With kids of approximately the same age (siblings or not), it is not so strange that the interest might become mutual and still remain perfectly innocent in nature, with nothing more than "look and touch" and (yes) maybe even mutual masturbation - no bad motive, just because it feels good! Eventually, as they grow a little older, they understand that some things (although ok) are private, and they usually grow out of it. So far, I see no problem ... If they don't grow out of it and it is still equally consentual, then I am still not convinced there is a real problem.

The real problem does DEFINITELY arise where there are children of differing ages and levels of development, where one child has some physical or psychological influence over the other (such as an older sibling has over a younger one), and uses it to persuade or force the other child into what the older child knows are sexual acts. The younger child is being taken advantage of - that is plain wrong!

The basic point here is no different than for adults where one partner is not consenting. Any time that anyone coerces someone who does not consent to do something, THAT is what is wrong! Whether you agree with incest (or not) is not the real issue here. The issue here is that ANY sexual acts are only ok if BOTH parties are of an age and maturity to properly consent. (In the case where both kids are equally very young and innocent, it really isn't an "intended sexual act", it is just part of self-discovery.)

In the case of ADULT incest, if both partners consent (and as long as no child comes of it, because of the genetic issues), then whether it is wrong or not depends on your personal point of view. "Live and let live", I say. I don't have to condone something to believe in a person's right to make their own decision and for them not to be condemned for having an unconventional lifestyle.

[hereandnow]

right on Guido!

Brandye, from your posts I know you have a somewhat unconventional lifestyle yourself being bi, so am a little surprised at your reaction here and in the topic about "sex in blood".

i think you write some really great stuff here and i don't mean to be rude, but it just seems a bit hypocritical. As Guido says, i think we need to be tolerant of all lifestyles where those involved are consenting, whether we agree with them or not!

[girlygirl]

Shugotenshi--I agree that the situation you discribe is sick and wrong, but so is any situation where one person is forcing something on another. That does not necessarily mean that a situation like the one Lauren discribes, which both people appeared to have enjoyed, is sick and wrong.

So do I think this is sick and wrong? I really don't know. Whenever I hear about something like this, my first reaction is disgust. However, in a case like this there is really no logical reason for the disgust. Incest in the traditional sense of the of the word is a problem because it can result in inbreeding. However, simply masterbating in front of eachother is very unlikely to result in pregnency, and therefor also very unlikely to result in inbreeding. So why is it still a problem?

[xx22xx]

because it conflicts with MANY people's morals

[yippi]

</span>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (xx22xx @ Jan. 06 2003,17:33)]because it conflicts with MANY people's morals

<span =''>
true *- but MANY things conflict with many people's morals - homosexuality, drinking, smoking - even masturbation (but who hasn't done that?) to name a few.

that doesn't make those people right, or mean that they should condemn other people for what they believe and do - part of living in a free society is having the freedom to be different. as long as the people involved are all happy and it is not hurting anyone else, then so what? morals are for yourself, not something to be inflicted on everyone else!

as someone else put it &quot;live and let live&quot;.

[shugotenshi]

xx22xx - You answered your own question, by my opinion.

And on a side note: I find both situations of sibling incest in any form, or forcing anything on anyone to be equally disturbing and wrong. But then, as I've said in other posts in this thread or others, I'm probably viewed as the more 'conservative' minority of my generation... And since there is generally strength in numbers, I can understand how people may see things as different from myself. While I respect their opinions as opinions, as ideals and actions I still find them disgusting..

[shugotenshi]

yippi - If morals are as you say, and this is just for constructive criticism, then how do you explain such things as the Sept. 11th attack, etc? Everyone agrees that those men were insane, unethical, madmen.. Ethics can also be defined as morals in many cases....or else virtues.

If a murderer doesn't think it's wrong to kill, does that mean that their 'moral' code of conduct is not faulty because it's what he/she believes? No...I'd think not, anyway. So therefore, how is it any different with anything else that lay within the doman of 'morals'??

Perversion is rampant in today's society. And while we are a free society, it does not mean that we are free without consiquences. In the case of incest, it can and does many times breed consiquences of inbreeding, as well as emotional or even physical trauma. The same applies with what would basically be considered rape (when only one partner in a sex relationship is pro- that relationship at the time)... It's not a thing that we can say &quot;just shut up and keep it to yourself, it's not your business&quot;... If I found someone being raped in an alley, I'd be sure to try and stop it.

Do not confuse 'freedom' with perversion, they are two seperate creatures all their own.

[Tjdude]

i saw this post long time ago and did not even bother to answer it because it sounded realy bogus, like some one put it here just to get attention. But i'll like to put my two cents now.

When i think of a situation like the one described at first (bro &amp; sis masturbating in front of each other) i just think, what kind of people will do that? who raise that kind of people?, how do they did it? in what kind of enviroment you have to live so you will end up with such sense of sexuality? surely those siblings saw many similars situations during their childhood in order to get to that point where they can masturbate in front of each other so easily, is not so hard to figure it out, monkey sees monkey does. If they masturbate in front of a bro or sis why not in front of a dad or mon? or backwards? or dad with sis and mom with bron, and why masturbate when you can do something more? surely if you got that far why stop there. Is getting sickier don't you think?

Will any one think that is all right for a father to have sex with his daughter just because they are all grown ups and consenting adults, just because they appear to enjoy it? do you think he will go to jail?

So those siblings are grown ups with a very different sense of sexuality. So what? Maybe they are not bad people, but the line between right and wrong is getting hard to see, and that can get you in trouble, because unless you live in a desert island the people with a more conventional lifestyle will make a big deal about all those thing they did not like.

So what do i think? i think it is wrong for many many reasons, and a pointless act. The only reason some one will do a thing like that is to get satisfaction from doing something very very bad that you are not supposed to do.

[Guido]

hey shugotenshi

I'm not quite sure how you managed to make the jump from yippi's argument of allowing consenting people to make their own decisions about what pleasures them - all the way to sept 11th attacks, murderers and rapists, so am afraid the logic of a lot of your argument escapes me. Murder and such is NOT about consenting people. How can you even compare the two?? I don't even get the connection ...

Anyway, re what is immoral or perverted? Whose definition are we going by? Yours? Mine? My Country's? Your Country's? My religion, or yours, or the guy down the block's? Morals standards are an individual ideal, they vary from person to person, country to country, from religion to religion. Do you think that we should ALL have identical morals and that no-one should be allowed to be different? Law is what we HAVE to abide by as a group, not morals. Law and morality are not the same thing. There are laws that are morally correct in some people's eyes and immoral in others.

The bottom line is - &quot;is everyone involved consenting&quot; (that rules out your murderer/rapist concern - because here clearly NOT everyone is consenting). It also rules out the father/daughter and mother/son argument (because the parent has an undue influence - even when the child grows up - which makes it wrong). But what about siblings, 1st cousins, 2nd cousins?? Did you know that in some countries marrying your second cousin is considered incest, while in others it is legal? Which is right? You can't just tar it all with one big brush and decree that it is all wrong, evil and that they are all perverts!

Just for the record, I am repulsed by the idea of incest (as I am by a number of other things). However, it's not my place (nor anyone else's) to brand people or to tell consenting adults what they can or can't do in the privacy of their own life!

[shugotenshi]

You're right, Guido.. I have no idea what I was thinking.