The Virgin Thread

[EvilEvilKitten]

To begin: apology accepted. Please understand that I do not have any emotion when I type advice. (I edit those parts out immediately before submitting.) I do understand tempers, I have one, but working in the military, and raising kids as well as dealing with a husband - all teach you to 'pick your battles'. Head ruling heart except for those issues that demand an immediate passionate response. Do not worry - I'm rather thick skinned as well as broad-minded.

In response:

#1. Please cite chapter and verse (Be very careful here. The history of the Bible is not something to be neglected.) Not that spiritual reasons aren't valid, you understand.

#2. Part of why 'picking your battles' is a skill all should learn. In such a case, he has proven himself unworthy, not you. You would be guilty of taking on more than is your due - which is something close to the sin of pride in an inverted sort of way. But your point is also somewhat valid but I would say that if you're mature enough to understand your immaturity aren't you mature enough?

#3. True, but then nothing is 100%. But you're insistence upon things being 100% does lend support for your contention that you are still emotionally immature. One of the hallmarks of being mature is the ability to 'play in gray' that is able to deal with things not being clear cut and easily handled as are absolutes - 'black & white'. But isn't 99.something% of it NOT happening ever a good reason? Frankly, your chances of dying in a car wreck are greater and yet you do still drive a car, right?

Yes, he sounds like a fine young man. A much better choice than your friend's.

#4. Since you're not having sex tis a moot point. Condoms do several things: they help prevent premature ejaculation, protect against pregnancy, and prevent the transmission of STDs and they are almost as reliable as BCPs when used correctly. As far as you feeling any difference, you won't. The vagina doesn't have nerve endings past its outer edges. The internal hotspots (the G-Spot and the fornices) aren't activated by directly feeling ala nerve endings but by pressure against adjacent tissues so condom or not - doesn't matter to you and your enjoyment.

#5. No that's not dumb. Insecure and romantic perhaps but not dumb. While yes, the first time with each new prson is the worst sex you will have with that person - the time you spend learning and exploring is FUN! You also increase your skill level. Each person has his/her own style so even if you're doing essentially the same things, "how" is usually completely different. In that difference you not only learn about him but also about yourself. That too is FUN!

People change over time. Your circumstances change over time. Sex, even with the same person shouldn't become dull - if you're paying attention. Yes, I would know. But how will you ever know if the sex is great/good/bad with nothing to compare it to? If your fiance' (is it?) hasn't any experience dealing with the fornices would you know enough to help him learn? There's reading about and then doing - hence the reliance upon simulators to teach guys to drive tanks etc. - some things just have to be taught 'hands-on' as it were, by those who were previously taught 'hands-on'.

To recap:

1. marriage is a life-long arrangement not sex: just ask most married men over age 40. You also are idealizing marriage.
2. controlling parents tend to bring on emotional immaturity and other issues simply by being controlling - you have to learn how to fail with the parents acting as a safety net underneath your trapeze act but too late now. Remember this when dealing with your own kids.
3. Nothing is 100% not even fertility.
4. Use safe sex techniques and then test beforehand - twice.
5. Rather limiting.

Your points are somewhat valid but I noticed that you rely upon external support to a great extent but when you do, you don't seem to really dig into that support system and test it thoroughly. You accept it as written without question. I might be mistaken, of course, since this isn't an essay and I am not perfect.

But thank you for answering as you have.

[darkchocolate]

hi there... i like your pic.. whats up

[ravishing]

I was reading the thread and couldn't help but wonder, @Evilevilkitten, why you are so adamant about downplaying virginity? You said you don't put emotion into those posts but you seem very passionate about it. How can you tell someone they don't need a "right guy" for their first sexual experience? Perhaps losing your virginity was easy for you and you could separate the emotion from it, but someone else may feel the opposite. Shouldn't each person want to make all of their sexual experiences as comfortable as possible?


And don't you think stating "Please stop thinking virginity is something precious and important - it isn't." as fact is going a little too far? That is completely a matter of opinion and sensitivity. There is no 'correct' way to think about it. Sex and love may be two different things but some people only want to have sex with somebody they love or care about deeply. So naturally, sex would be important to them, and losing their virginity would be important. How would it be wrong to feel that way? One of the (several) reasons some people place important on making it 'special' or having the right person is because it is the loss of the childlike wonder about sex, opening a new chapter in your life, opening yourself to a new world of experiences. That feeling of "oh wow, this is really happening! I thought about it but it's so different to actually be doing it" that you get with almost every first experience in life.

Not to mention the world revolves around sex. Life itself revolves around sex. Some people (although they will likely be disappointed later) wish to only have sex with one person in their lifetime. So part of why virginity may be important to them is nervousness that they're not choosing the person they're going to spend the rest of their life with.

If sex is important to someone, and they see it as a physical expression of their love, then virginity is considered important. If someone enjoys casual sex, and finds virginity important, then that's a much better question I cannot answer.

I can't relate to any religious or fear of pregnancy/STD reasoning. I just also have that desire to have as few sex partners as possible. In my opinion, it's something intimate and spiritual I'd only want to share with someone I am very attached to. That idea just seems beautiful to me, and it feels 'right'. It's almost unexplainable with words. But I respect that other people feel differently, and they should do whatever they want. I don't think we should be telling anyone what they like or how they think of sex, and love, is wrong though.

[EvilEvilKitten]

Experience makes you qualified to judge suitable from unsuitable partners; experience keeps you on an even emotional keel thus better able to deal with relationship issues and can improve your subsequent marriage; experience gives you confidence, more understanding and actually makes you kinder and more attractive to your partners and experience makes you much less vulnerable to those sexual con-artists and predators who are out there looking for the naive.

If it were a perfect world, your attitude would be fine... fair damels and gallant knights...but out here in the trenches, it isn't pretty and a girl's got to watch her own back most of the time. Getting experience through safe sex while still in high school when you have your parent's safety net beneath you is actually the more responsible course of action.

Read around the forum some more.

[ravishing]

Thanks for the response but you still didn't quite answer the question. It is still only a matter of opinion, and other people have had different experiences than you. Are their experiences less important?

BTW, I'm not so naive as you assume I am just because my view is a little more 'romantic' than you would like. I know it's not a perfect world, which is why I'm not in any rush. I may be a romantic but I am also a cynic. I think almost every girl who feels this way is just going to get her heart broken and be very disappointed. Especially when they confuse infatuation and attraction with a love that can live past teenage hormones.

While experience gives you confidence, understanding, and can make you more attractive, some people already have plenty of those things without the vast experience that you have. In my opinion, you don't need to make the mistake yourself to learn from it. Research and the desire to learn are just as good if not better than experience. I know plenty more about safe sex than any of the kids actually having it. I'm not sexually repressed or sheltered. My parents have always been open about sex and I've known about contraception and birth control since I wasn't even in double digits. This greatly upset my friends' parents who felt I was a bad influence. Apparently there was something wrong with 11 year olds knowing what a dildo is. Ironically, these friends that were sheltered from sex ended up having sex early without a context of a serious relationship. Having a romantic view of sex doesn't result from having less knowledge about sex. It's silly to think that way. I love sex, even though I am a virgin. I'm looking forward to it. I'm not expecting a romantic first time. I'm expecting it to be awkward and uncomfortable at the least. But the part that makes it special is not the act itself, but who I'll do it with. I am resigned to the way the world works, like you, but I am not going to settle for it and sleep around. I'm not looking for a knight in shining armor laying rose petals on the bed bringing us both to earth shattering simultaneous orgasms. I'm not an idiot. Virginity doesn't hold any more importance to me than any sex I would have after that. Really, I'd just like to get that part over with and skip to having enjoyable sex all the time. That doesn't mean I'm going to throw out my beliefs so I don't get trampled on. Nobody can trample on you or take advantage of you unless you let them, and I am vigilant.

When the time comes, I will have sex in a serious relationship, after the guy has proven that he respects me and understands how important choosing to have sex with him is. I'm not going to expect us to be life partners, because neither of us can see the future. Every teenager goes through a relationship where they say "oh I'm in love, this is the one...I know everybody says that..but this is different!", and alas...everybody says that and is proven wrong.

I don't think 15 is too early and I don't think 22 is too late. Everybody reaches maturity individually. Unfortunately, a lot of people have sex before they have reached that emotional maturity, which is what I think these people were trying to warn them about. I watch my back, and I try to watch other girls' backs. The most common advice is that men use love to get sex. Don't fall for it. If you want to have sex, have sex..but don't have sex because that person says they love you.

Sorry about the essay....what can I say, sex is my favorite topic..

[EvilEvilKitten]

It is one thing to have intellectual understanding and entirely another thing to have the blood singing through your veins with another person or persons involved.

Consider seeing a picture of Mount Everest versus actually being atop Mount Everest.

So what if the 'love' or infatuation doesn't last past the time spent naked with him if you both had fun and enjoyed yourselves? The relationship has to be built on more than sex but the sex doesn't have to be built on anything more than mutual desire and whether that desire lasts or not is not germane. Lust is just fine on its own. (And the differences are explained elsewhere in this forum). Lust does have its role to play.

If you read around, as you are being encouraged to do, you will find certain common themes such a 'male appeasement sex" - and the stats aren't good ex. 70% of married women have sex not because they deire their husbands but "just to shut him up". Now, why is that? It isn't that they don't love him with that deep abiding attachment, no, not at all - it is because they have issues with sex itself and part of that is fostered by the value we place upon virginity as in virgin = good; not a virgin = bad. Yes, there is a book (I forget the author) out on this topic that you may want to look up and read. I haven't but it is specificly about this topic.

If you have no experience with sex how can you have an informed opinion about sex? And yes, sex is my favorite topic too - I've been studying sex and inter-gender relationships for more than 40 years now.

[Humble]

Ravishing, EvilEvilKitten seems to be on a one-woman quest to fight virginity wherever it appears, lol.

More seriously, though, people are ready for sex at different ages and in different circumstances. For some people the lust circuit is separate from attachement, but many for many it's not and they need the latter to be able to enjoy the former (although they still might not). I think for EEK it is entirely separate and that's why she is urging everybody who comes here to get started with sex as quickly as possible. Ultimately, though it is an individual thing - some people feel comfortable in more defined circumstances, such as with a stable partner and so on.

I mean, even some of the articles on this forum state that being ready for sex is not a matter of age. I am in my late 20s and I don't think I am ready for sex, but somebody might be in early 20s and might be ready for sex and some people might even never be ready for sex, so it is an individual thing.

[EvilEvilKitten]

Not necessarily- but what does "ready for sex" actually mean?

Then there's "the right person" and the "relationship". Jeez!

Baggage, anyone?

[ravishing]

Originally Posted by EvilEvilKitten

If you have no experience with sex how can you have an informed opinion about sex? And yes, sex is my favorite topic too - I've been studying sex and inter-gender relationships for more than 40 years now.

To answer your question...I research and inform myself. There is plenty of information out there in books, the internet, and other people. As someone who is trying to teach people about sex, you must agree that knowledge is the most important thing? Yes, you are right that the desire does not have to last to be able to enjoy sex...but that is an opinion that you and some other people share. It doesn't apply to everyone and it's not a fact. Some people can only enjoy sex with a deeper level of emotional connection and/or commitment, and their opinion isn't any more or less correct than yours. Could you agree with that?

Ready for sex in the eye of nature is not as soon as you have menstruation, but after you have physically matured and are able to bear children safely/successfully. That could be a couple years or several years after the start of puberty. The average low would be 14 and the average high would be 19. There are of courses cases of people who hit puberty extremely early, whether due to a hormonal condition or just genetics.

I admire that you're trying to free women from male-appeasement sex, but I disagree that it results because of attitudes about virginity. Perhaps even the opposite. While you are really lucky to have started having sex because you wanted to, many women start having sex because they are pressured to. Or to please men...rather than a genuine desire or readyness to try it. Most men don't know how to please a woman, and most of those don't really care. It's the pressure to have ideal sex in the eyes of a man that's why 70% of married women don't like having sex with their husbands. Not the pressure to not have sex. I would also go as far as to say, having a deep attachment is not the key to a romantic relationship, so it's besides the point. It's having the balance of love and lust together. Lots of women may actually be struggling to be sexually attracted to their husbands after the initial thrill of the new relationship or unrealistically high expectations of marriage. We love family members and friends in a platonic way, and without the lust, that's how they'll come to see their husbands. Just my theory.

[EvilEvilKitten]

Knowledge is always good however as stated earlier, you can know all about Mount Everest but until you're standing atop Mount Everest you don't know Mount Everest. No, I was stating a fact. Physiologically, humans can enjoy sex without "sharing a deeper emotional relationship". That is to say, they have the capacity to do so.

Whether they will PERMIT themselves to do so is the question.

By holding virginity as being good, you have little choice but consider non-virginity as bad. This sets up the "Goddess/whore" thing which still has people calling each other skags and sluts (etc.) simply because they enjoy sex. The same thought patterns lead women to think of men as 'the enemy' hence 'to feel pressured' to have sex just because a guy offers in a hyper-sensitive kind of way (disregarding rape and abuse). And women end up NOT giving themselves permission to enjoy what is their birthright.

Most men DO care how well they please a woman. And they are not so ignorant and hard-hearted as you presume (evidence of this forum not withstanding). Most experienced men know that women are sexual titans with whom they can barely keep up but they keep trying despite any attendant 'issues'.

And, sorry to say, but in that last paragraph, you're both partially and completely wrong. 70% do not want sex with their husbands because of errors on both sides and their past history getting in the way. It is not just the men's fault.

"I would also go as far as to say, having a deep attachment is not the key to a romantic relationship, so it's besides the point." WRONG! Having a deep abiding attachment is ENTIRELY the point, the goal, the reward of a romantic relationship which you never entirely lose.