Okay - one more time- sex is NOT a weapon, a tool, a commodity.

Sex is the physical expression of desire and is just...well...FUN!

IF it isn't then you have some open and honest communicating to do.

Bringing your spouse or SigOt here may be a good place to begin.

This situation is posted here so often - sex was great; now no interest on her part (sometimes his part.) Look around and you will se many answers.

Sex is often treated as the problem whilst only being a symptom. Perhaps a few trips to a marriage counselor would help to get you both thinking along the same lines.

I guess the main advice in most threads would be to have a decent talk with your wife. Not for expressing your discontent or for "self-gain". But for the sole reason that you love her and cherish your relationship (which we know you do, since it's stated in your post :)). The main purpose of the conversation being to find out; How does she feel? What does she need? What could you do to make her feel better?

Perhaps she's completely exhausted from taking care of the kids, household, job (perhaps all together)? Maybe she'd like some help with that? Maybe she'd like you to spend more time with the kids, or as a family together? Maybe she feels that you two need to be spending more quality time with just the two of you (movie, dinner)?

These are just a few randomly picked examples, as mentionned in other threads, that all have nothing to do with sex itself, yet could very well influence it (as Brandye indicates). This tells you nothing much about what's truly going on in your situation. Cause really, I can't read minds ;) Neither can you. So go and ask her. Good luck! :)

I would echo the advice to find out what else is going on in her mental/emotional world. For one thing, kids will do that to you, plain and simple. Is she stressed at work? Feeling over-worked or under-helped at home? Having a crisis of self-confidence? A crisis of self-image? Is it possible some hormones have changed?

Twisting things that people say and lashing out in return are often defense mechanisms--from a few of the things you've said it sounds to me like she maybe feels accused. (Ten Tasks of Hercules and she just doesn't enjoy it, for example) Which then puts her on the defensive because A-it isn't her intent to do the specific things she's being accused of, and B-neither is it her intent in the grander scheme to cause this pain to you.

The two of you need to have a talk about the two of you. Not with the purpose of figuring out the sex problem at first--I agree with Brandye that it's merely a symptom. What's going on OUTSIDE the bedroom? Take cues from things she's said--she accuses you of not finding her attractive.....this is why I mentioned earlier a possible crisis of self-image. She accuses you of pressure....if not from you, where does the pressure she's perceiving REALLY come from? The distance between you that this conversation should seek to close is the EMOTIONAL one, not the SEXUAL one. That conversation comes later. Fix the former and the latter will follow.

And one more thing about these conversations: do your utmost not to resort to emotion-provoking accusations such as the ones I mentioned above---either of you. Her whining guilt trip routine is just as much dirty pool in this conversation as your sarcastic zinger routine. Express the issues in the honest, forthright manner of adult communication. "I need YOU to want ME": good approach. "Ten tasks of Hercules": bad approach.

You need to make the following changes, buddy.

1. Remove stress from her life as much as you possibly can. All work and no play makes Jane one tired out, constantly griping, dull woman.

2. Do NOT want sex all of the time - ONLY want sex when she comes to you with fire in her eyes and desire for you in her heart regardless of who actually initiates sex.

3. Leave your ego at the bedroom door. If the lady ever truly cut loose she could sexually speaking mop the floor with you and leave you gasping, wondering what your name was. IF you're one of those men whose technique is so poor that she's wondering 1. why she bothered and 2. how you could stand embarassing yourself like that - you have work to do.

4. STFU - stop sucking all of the oxygen out of the room and give the lady room to breathe. She knows there's a problem but she hasn't quite found the right way to express it. During your argument, I bet you tried several justifications, presented your case and didn't REALLY listen to her. Remember your history together and consider how you were both raised to regard sex and sexuality.

There are a great many threads dealing with this specific issue and more than several articles - read them.

[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;262623]You need to make the following changes, buddy.

1. Remove stress from her life as much as you possibly can. All work and no play makes Jane one tired out, constantly griping, dull woman.

2. Do NOT want sex all of the time - ONLY want sex when she comes to you with fire in her eyes and desire for you in her heart regardless of who actually initiates sex.

3. Leave your ego at the bedroom door. If the lady ever truly cut loose she could sexually speaking mop the floor with you and leave you gasping, wondering what your name was. IF you're one of those men whose technique is so poor that she's wondering 1. why she bothered and 2. how you could stand embarassing yourself like that - you have work to do.

4. STFU - stop sucking all of the oxygen out of the room and give the lady room to breathe. She knows there's a problem but she hasn't quite found the right way to express it. During your argument, I bet you tried several justifications, presented your case and didn't REALLY listen to her. Remember your history together and consider how you were both raised to regard sex and sexuality.

There are a great many threads dealing with this specific issue and more than several articles - read them.[/QUOTE]

This is very true. Sex should be a part of Love..should not look like an animal instinct. :D

WOW...if you "do" this, you might "get" that!! sic...Sex and love should be unconditional..PERIOD!! Just because you are too tired,too stressed,add any excuse you want, you should NEVER withhold because of you! That is just NASTY and not being honest..are partners supposed to wait for "cookie crumbs?..Darnnit..take some accountability and control of your life...don't download it on your partner. Sometimes yah, we don't feel like doing it... but for gawd sakes why are taking it out on your partner??!! :mad::rolleyes::rolleyes:

yeah i agree HardNGood,why take it out on your partner.Because they can and it's WRONG,my almost ex used to push me out of bed or rape me,yes that's right RAPE when i wasn't in the mood.WHERE IS THE LOVE.I would give any thing if someone loved me and wanted to spend precious moments with me.I have never truly felt wanted and needed by a man.Not for 21yrs anyway.

[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;262623]
2. Do NOT want sex all of the time - ONLY want sex when she comes to you with fire in her eyes and desire for you in her heart regardless of who actually initiates sex.
[/QUOTE]

this is the one I'm going to try. no more sex for my wife unless she comes begging and offering something interesting. which she won't.

for what it's worth, there's probably other stuff going on that need to be taken care of. problem is, she's a woman and will just think you should be able to figure out what her problem is without her having to tell you. take a look at her situation and see what you can find.

I also find it very low to make you believe you'll get some action just to make you do stuff for her. next time, tell her that trick just doesn't work anymore. my wife has been using that same trick, and I've just about had it. It's at the point where I can't say for sure I would not commit adultery as soon as the opportunity presented itself (which it hasn't and probably won't, which is probably just as well)

I agree with Int.

No questions asked, no answers gained!

And if she can't or won't answer, it's not because she's "a woman". It's because she's "a person" with a certain character, history, attitudes and believes. Attitudes that are below the surface, but influence her behavior. This could be anything!
Ranging from: an (unhealthy) attitude towards what close bonds and relationships are supposed to be, such as: that explaining means that you don't know her, that whatever relationship you have lessens in worth, because you can't mindread her.
To: an (unhealthy) attitude towards what she as an individual is supposed to cope with, such as: getting help equals being weak, also in a romantic relationship. She deals with every problem on her own. Even sharing is out of the question.

But first things first; just ask her! :)

[QUOTE=PerKr;263798]for what it's worth, there's probably other stuff going on that need to be taken care of. problem is, she's a woman and will just think you should be able to figure out what her problem is without her having to tell you.[/QUOTE]

Newsflash: Scientists have made a recent, groundbreaking discovery in the field of interpersonal communications. They're called questions.

They've even discovered that women are capable of providing the answers to these new phenomenon. The only difficulty here, occurs when they don't get asked.

You want to know what's going on with me, or what I need from you? Ask me. Even if part of me thinks you should already know, at least if you ask, I know that the reason you don't know isn't for a lack of giving a $#!T. I can't tell you what you don't know, if I don't know you don't know. And even if I know you don't know, I probably won't tell you anyway if I think you just don't give a $#!T.

useing your body to get your way does not mean you have to be an airhead with no development to personality thats like assuming a carpenter cant have any knoledge beyond his craft just because you can use your body does not mean you will not develope in any other way

exactly raunchy besides having a great body is an asset like inteligence. If you have it use it I see nothing at all wrong with that. Alot of girls work very hard to maintain a great body. So whats so wrong with getting ahead abit for all that effort. It is not like your destroying the Moral fabric of Society or anything.

[QUOTE=PerKr;263798]this is the one I'm going to try. no more sex for my wife unless she comes begging and offering something interesting. which she won't.

for what it's worth, there's probably other stuff going on that need to be taken care of. problem is, she's a woman and will just think you should be able to figure out what her problem is without her having to tell you. take a look at her situation and see what you can find.

I also find it very low to make you believe you'll get some action just to make you do stuff for her. next time, tell her that trick just doesn't work anymore. my wife has been using that same trick, and I've just about had it. It's at the point where I can't say for sure I would not commit adultery as soon as the opportunity presented itself (which it hasn't and probably won't, which is probably just as well)[/QUOTE]
Lets see here, I don't think thats going to work.After being married for 36 yrs, I figured out that I still don't know a thing about what a woman is thinking. When it comes to knowing what she is feeling, take a guess, and you will still be wrong. I still ask her out on a date once a month and we go out and eat dinner any place she wants to try. During dinner is a great time to find whats going on and if she wants some help with an issue or project, she's relaxed and out of the house.

Personally i think if you've got it flaunt it.If people find you attractive and sexy and want to be with you,and you have no ties then i can't see any reason why you shouldn't take what they offer.You can always say no if and when you choose to.

saddly kitten to many sex isa controll form (mostly for females). I admit I used my body to get my way in my youth. I am not like that anymore but I do still get away with allmost anything, cause I am attractive I dont think thats bad.

Think about it. Here you are trading sex for whatever. You manipulate and think its good because you can get away with it...for now. But then age will take its toll and your 'attractiveness' will diminish and then what of real value are you left with - nothing much because you've proven yourself untrustworthy. Also having this 'attractiveness' leads you to think 'I don't have to work at developing anything else' so brains, skills, and character are neglected.

BTW - same for men and women - you have to have MORE than just 'good looks' esp nowadays when $$ will buy you a re-manufactured body via plastic surgery.

You're missing the point. First of all, no one's saying that beautiful equals idiot. The point is that people will take "beauty plus" before they'll take beauty standing on its own. Secondly, there's a difference between "if you've got it, flaunt it" and using it as a tool to manipulate situations.

The former is fine. To me, it's simply having self-confidence.

The latter will eventually come back to bite you in the @$$ if you try it enough times with enough people. Worst case scenario: Some day, some guy will turn out to be more than you can handle, but you'll realize it too late. Next thing you know he's--maybe by force--refusing to take no for an answer. Best case scenario: You get a reputation for being either easy, or manipulative.

[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;263899]Okay let's take the "if you've got it, flaunt it" out to the limit - walk down the street naked. Go to work naked. Meet your kids' teachers naked for a conference. Why not? All you're doing is flaunting it aren't you?? What's wrong with that? You're just using what you've worked so very hard to achieve.[/QUOTE]
Personally I see no harm in a woman showing off her confidence (same goes for men). In fact: everyone should be walking with their back straight! Everyone is beautiful in their own imperfect way!

Given the fact people can get "something" out of looking good. Just allow me to share a few thoughts on this.

I think this depends on the nature of the relationship between people. Depending on intentions relationships either lead to bonding or trading. Sometimes the nature is hard to differentiate. With a (high) risk of expectations that do not match.

Intentions, relationships and trading
As I've mentioned before on http://www.sexinfo101.com/forum/member-polls/29296-how-many-young-guys-i... (page 5) about whether an older guy could date a younger woman, without becoming her sugar daddy:
[quote]I guess the less "serious" intentions, the more likely she wants you to pay up for all the goodies she wants and gives you her goodies in return. There's no getting around it; women have a lot of men to pick from and that makes it easier for her to make demands.[/quote]

Less serious intentions meaning for example; looking for sex with a pretty young thing in order to boost his own ego (iow: shallow self-gain). When engaging in this relationship (or better: deal), she'll ask for something that she wants herself. So unless she's looking for sex with an older man, he'll have to use his "assets".

More serious intentions meaning: looking for a sort of bonding therefor paying attention to her personality. This does not have to be "marital bonding", just friendship will suffice. Sexual benefits not necessarily excluded, off course. If the man has more serious intentions, than the trade-mechanism will not likely be activated. Nor effective when applied; since he would run away from such reactions.

Mismatching intentions & expectations
There's a tricky part to trade: when a trade-mechanism is applied, it is usually not spoken out loud or signed. The relationship is formed, but are it's nature and boundaries defined? The pay-up could exceed the gain from the man's perspective, depending how much she considers herself "worth". It could become an unfair deal. Or it seems to be, in which one of them doesn't "pay-up". For instance when he thinks he'll get sex, but according to her this was never part of the bargain. She thinks she's so gorgeous that just being allowed to sit next to her, should be enough. Or she may think: what bargain? She thinks he's just being "nice" to her! When expectations do not match, it becomes tricky. Both could become agitated and even aggressive.

Trade-culture
That's how things are in a trade-culture that focuses on (measurable) achievement, outer beauty and self gain. Our entire economy and our lives run on this! It is only "stopped" in small settings; such as a friendship or romantic relationship that relies on (deep) bonding. And even in these intimate settings people sometimes fall into the trap of "self-gain".

Changing this culture is just as difficult as trying to get everyone to be naked on a hot summersday, in which people can differentiate between being naked in it's pure form and naked in a sexual way. People generally can do this in a relationship, but seem to lose this ability outside on the street...

So, what do you guys think about my thoughts?

PS: I've exaggerated a bit to provide a more clear explanation. And the roles are not stuck on gender, off course. Instead of an attractive female, it could be male, the older man could be woman, etc.

Okay let's take the "if you've got it, flaunt it" out to the limit - walk down the street naked. Go to work naked. Meet your kids' teachers naked for a conference. Why not? All you're doing is flaunting it aren't you?? What's wrong with that? You're just using what you've worked so very hard to achieve.

Confidence is one thing and isn't usually gained by looking attractive but by accomplishing goals that have merit. The thing about Confidence is that one doesn't have to flaunt it. Confidence is an INNER quality allied to character and has nothing to do with attractiveness.

Mistaking it, as in - "I look good therefore I am confident." - for anything else is an error. The sentence should read "I look good therefore I am attractive."

Now if you have to be attractive before you can feel confident - that's a self-esteem issue. which should be addressed by accomplishing a goal worthy of the effort - a goal with merit.

What person X finds attractive may not be the same thing that person Y delights in - therein lies the problem with using outward appearances for gain. You can't be yourself - you have to be whatever someone else wants you to be.

thats pretty cool

[QUOTE=lnt1103;263850]Newsflash: Scientists have made a recent, groundbreaking discovery in the field of interpersonal communications. They're called questions.

They've even discovered that women are capable of providing the answers to these new phenomenon. The only difficulty here, occurs when they don't get asked.

You want to know what's going on with me, or what I need from you? Ask me. Even if part of me thinks you should already know, at least if you ask, I know that the reason you don't know isn't for a lack of giving a $#!T. I can't tell you what you don't know, if I don't know you don't know. And even if I know you don't know, I probably won't tell you anyway if I think you just don't give a $#!T.[/QUOTE]

Guess I'm just full of prejudice :D Does hold true with the women on my wifes side of the family though (you can ask them several times and they still won't tell you, but you will hear about it several days later). But I wasn't entirely serious when I wrote that anyway :)

anyway, my idea seems to be working well so far. the first night she spent quite a bit of time trying to get me to have sex with her. It was way better than our normal sex routine, even if I was half asleep. Might have been that it was my suggestion/decision (to hold off for the rest of the year, which IMO wouldn't be all that different to the normal situation) and she just wanted to prove that I can't stay away, I don't know.

Well if you want my advice I say you confront her on the subject and really talk to her about it, Politely of course. Maybe her hormones are changing and she just isn't in the mood. Confront her about it, maybe she might end up trying to take sex pills to revive her sex system.

Buddy,

The advice you're getting from the ladies I have problems with. Particularly the "maybe she's tired" nonsense. I've spent the better part of the last two years working a FT job which consists of 12 hour shifts, and finished the interior of a formerly unfinished new house over the past 18 months. I was doing the carpentry, flooring, bath, tile, electric, plumbing, you name it on every day I had off. My point is I was worn out both mentally and physically from essentially a FT job followed by a FT job at home. I always had the energy left for my wife at night. Like you, I'm the sole pursuer. I'm the one who has to initiate. And she's not worn out from too much work at home trust me. I will say that she is willing when I pursue. She never complains but at the same time it leaves me feeling like it's a one-way relationship. I just get tired of listening to these "female" excuses. If the relationship started out with a BANG as you described, then I think it's fair to expect a fair amount of that to continue in the relationship (kids and other duties obviously aside). She's not treating you right and you have every right to expect an unconditionally loving sexual relationship with her. End of story

I'm willing to guess that if the OPs wife will strip naked and lay across his lap on the sofa that they don't have kids in the house. So her exhaustion due to kids is a moot point. Tired from upkeeping the house? maybe, but as a stay at home parent, keeping a house relatively clean isn't a very daunting and tiring task unless you live in a mansion.
Although, she may have a very stressful job outside of the house that causes exhaustion. However, it is very disrepectful of her to lay naked across you allowing for contact for an extended period on a regular basis and not reciprocating.

They may need professional marital help. But discussing this together outside of the bedroom will also be most helpful. She is sending you mixed signals all over the place and then when you decide to call in the cards, she's turned the page on you. She's sending signals (as a guy reads them) that she's interested, but when confronted with it, she says she's not.

This all reminds me of a conversation I had with my wife about 3 weeks ago. She woke up on a Saturday morning and gave me some dirty details about an x rated dream she'd had about me. I took that as a good sign, but nothing happened for 3 days. When I asked her about the dream and why she even bothered to tell me if she didn't want any action from it, she said it was just a dream. So I asked her, "how would you feel if I said, I had a really nice dream that I took you out shopping for some new jewelry and shoes, but I had no intention of doing either?" She got my point.

If talking brings up arguments, try starting the conversation via text message. It can be less confrontational.

The other thing you can do is quit pursuing her. Women do like to be fawned over and chased. Give her only a tiny bit of the chase, then stop and wait for her to move forward before making the next step. If you're having to go 99% of the way and she's iffy on the other 1% then things are way out of kilter.

Having kids in the house = trying to get rapid-transit persons from doing dangerous or destructive things things while keeping them clean, fed, napped, and educated or to put it another way "if you call often enough the nice lady at the Poison Control Center will remember you." And you say that isn't exhausting?!?!? Granted the lady from whom I quoted had 5 sons under the age of 5 years but still - one child isn't easy and it just gets worse the more they out number you.

And while you're doing that - do everything else as well.

For example my day today: including my own three businesses, grocery-getting, car parts getting, home parts-getting, stopping by the bank and running the dry-cleaning. Get home and then its laundry, making the beds, dealing with the two hellions, dealing with state bureaucracy, paying the bills, refi-ing the house, appeasing the SEC, registering the car, reading precisely three pages in a book on Seacoast Fortifications, beating back the ivy (let go of my ankles) vacuuming the carpets, cleaning up the kitchen and finally answering questions here. Did I mention that it is a very humid 100 degrees F outside? Tonight's dinner is salmon with a salad and a pinot noir.

Nope! No reason at all for me to be tired and disinclined to put up with his issues.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a fish to put back into the tank and a kid to swat!

[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;263970]Confidence is one thing and isn't usually gained by looking attractive but by accomplishing goals that have merit. The thing about Confidence is that one doesn't have to flaunt it. Confidence is an INNER quality allied to character and has nothing to do with attractiveness.

Mistaking it, as in - "I look good therefore I am confident." - for anything else is an error. The sentence should read "I look good therefore I am attractive."

Now if you have to be attractive before you can feel confident - that's a self-esteem issue. which should be addressed by accomplishing a goal worthy of the effort - a goal with merit.

What person X finds attractive may not be the same thing that person Y delights in - therein lies the problem with using outward appearances for gain. You can't be yourself - you have to be whatever someone else wants you to be.[/QUOTE]

I love what you said here. I've been dealing with self confidence issues a lot lately, and it's been effecting mine and my husbands sex lives together. He says he loves me just the way I am and I know he does but I still do not like the way I look after having 2 kids and it effects my performance. But the way you said confidence shouldn't come from the way you look but rather the accomplishments you achieve really hit home for me. I've completed so many things, a GPA of 3.8 and college and in 3 months I'll be a pharmacist. and being a good mom and wife, I should have confidence but I've still been feeling next to nothing because I'm thicker and have stretch marks from child birth and I don't look like all these pretty skinny women I see everywhere. But I guess when you're comparing yourself to everyone else all you see are beautiful women everywhere you look if your self image is like zero. But you made me rethink my image, I still want to lose weight and I have a healthy plan of exercising daily and eating healthier to achieve yet another goal. I just always thought confidence= the way you look and you showed me that that's not the case. Thank you!

Trust me, carolina - I'm no raving beauty queen and I scare more men than I score and yet - I am confident. Why not? I am unique. The one, the only EvilEvilKitten!

Just like each one of you is the one, the only YOU!

So you're not skinny, fit, healthy, cute, adorable - pffft!
Good people are good people regardless of the packaging.

As for this thread and the complaints - "as you sow, so shall you reap". By demanding sex, as if a right, more men screw themselves out of sex simply because their wives do not feel they have room to breathe. So they end up having sex just to shut him up. NOT what he wants and yet he wonders what went wrong. When was the last time he made her laugh? When was the last time he brought her one rose because he got his haircut? (Crazy, I know but it works!) When was the last time they actually had just plain FUN together? There's got to be more to your life than work, eat, sleep - what happened to just plain PLAY?

The flip side:

I feel that EEK is right on target with her replies to this. It seems to me that my husband has the same ideology as the OP.

As determined: lack of sex = a symptom of a deeper problem within the marriage.

My husband thinks that I do not want him. I have told him repeatedly that I do but he cannot hear it. I end up feeling pressured sexually.

I feel my husband treats me like I am his toy. He puts me up on the shelf until he wants to play with me and when he is done, he puts me back up on the shelf. I want interaction with him, I want to play with him, I want to be able to talk with him without judgment, I want us to do things together and to find things that we love to do together. I feel that part of the process of doing those things is finding out what the other one likes, enjoys doing, or would love to try.

To me, foreplay is the every day loving interaction between the husband and wife. When I say this to him, I end up feeling as if my opinions are wrong and that I should be happy with his ideology but in doing so, I lose part of me. I explain my needs to him and he shuts off because his needs aren't being met.
I try to explain to him that in meeting my needs, I will meet and exceed his but he wants me to meet and exceed his first although I have done that before and my needs still go unchecked. It is a vicous circle, a cycle of giving and no getting.

I need to feel loved daily not only on my birthday and our anniversary. I feel that he views me as an anatomically correct doll with movable arms and legs but no brain inside my head. He says if he has to get me to want to have sex, then it means that I do not want him. I explain to him that he isn't getting me to 'want' to have sex, but just getting to me where I can have sex, I need to be able to relax and let my mind focus on the sexual act and not where the children are or what they are doing. I cannot drop my pants in the kitchen while the kids are in the living room and because I cannot do that it doesn mean that there is something wrong with me, I am not sexually repressed, I am multi-orgasmic, I can and do cut loose...but I am still me and I still have needs.

I'd say you just want to be treated as a human being by the man who says he loves you but treats you as if he doesn't.

I greatly fear you're going to have to get tough with him - all with the aim of teaching him better - go to this PetSmart or other pet store - buy 4 strong leashes and a nice thick collar. Tie your husband down onto the bed with the leashes, put the collar around his neck and see how many times - using whatever methods you want - he can ejaculate in 45 minutes. In other words - drive the man into the ground. Disregard any refractory period entirely - just keep stimulating him and keep going well beyond his sexual capabilities. Treat him as a sex toy and be demanding about it. Ignore anything he says.

He wants sex? Okay then buddy - its game on and we all know who is going to win.

Gentlemen - be careful what you wish for.