[url=http://www.slate.com/id/2303809/?gt1=38001]Testosterone and fatherhood: Are men designed to nurture children? - Slate Magazine
[INDENT]"a study just published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found that testosterone levels in young Filipino men fell 30 percent after they became fathers—more than double the reduction that occurred in childless bachelors of the same cohort during the same four-year period. There was a particularly big drop among men with infants. Furthermore, men who said they took care of their kids for at least three hours a day registered 20 percent less testosterone than did men who weren't involved in child-rearing"[/INDENT]
Those are the flat facts, then comes the interpretation. According to the author of this article; just another science-project that's gotten out of context by political and social point of views.
What do you think?
my interpretation is that the body is adapting to its needs. if testosterone is useful for procreation and fighting to be the alpha male, then testosterone is not needed in high amounts when he has a family. the body can spend energy doing something else rather producing testosterone right? the body adapts and produces more muscle when you lift heavy weight. when you no longer need that muscle the body gets rid of it and becomes more efficient.
i believe that both men and women change when they become a parent or guardian. both can live a wild lifestyle before children but change and step up to their responsibilities. we can all see that, now we just have hormonal evidence of this.
Lower testoserone levels make men easier to live with and increases safety for children since the men are also less aggressive. This is a good thing and is entirely natural - but the children do NOT have to be his.
Men do feel the need to nuture. They want to take care of someone. Most single men go in for a pet. Some men take an interest in their nieces and nephews.
I have to single male friends who adore my grandkittens and are helping me document their childhoods by being their personal papparazzi - Scottish Games? Sure! They come along and film the girls brandishing their wooden daggers and leaping off the rocks. All the fun of kids without the work while it fulfills their need to nuture while my daughter and I shake our heads and think the entire bunch are just too silly - 4 kids by our counting.
I enjoyed the part in which this article points out that there are reasons advocated that weren't measured at all. It points out how even politicians "misuse" research-results.
The hormone-system and human behavior is so complex that we only understand little of it. Personally, I think every human has an innate tendency to nurture, bond and love. Some stronger than others. But we all seem to need it. Which seems logical in a species that is so fragile in essence, helpless at birth and needs years of developing before reaching adulthood. We thrive in our intelligence and in our strength to cooperate. The survival of the species needs to be ensured; an innate tendency to nurture and social practice may very well come in handy. And to bond also means to protect. We protect most fierce what we love most. Which is definitely worth reassuring. It may be women have a more likely nurturing tendency by their physique that was designed to have children. After all; of all people we know who will surely be present when a baby comes ;)
When it comes to your own children, women have a jumpstart because of the physicality of pregnancy and birth; nine-months of hormonal change and being bonded to their child. She seems to "know" the baby by the way they stare at eachother after birth. You could say they're deeply falling in love. Whereas for the man this baby may have been almost unreal until it's born. There is a theory that apart from cultural views it's also witnissing this that causes men to back down, thinking "she knows better" how to care for their little bundle of joy. Because the father keeps himself aside, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of who will care for the baby. You can't change the physicality, but you can change the circumstances. When the father is made part of the pregnancy, all the preparation, the birth itself and is allowed to hold the baby after birth too, he's more likely to nurture his child. All of which I'd consider only natural in a social species that we are; to share our experiences together.
Iow; I think women may have a slight tendency to be more nurturing, but it's definitely not a female characteristic, it's part of being human.
Makes sense, like EEK said...a less aggressive father is a "safer" father rin terms of children. I mean think about it. A raging testosterone filled "alpha male" who's "mate" is giving all her attention to a small child. They're going to punt that kid into the next century since its mens instinct to be the leader and center of attention.
I don't know if its true in cases where men aren't the father. I work the child care club at the gym a few days a week. I love playing with the 4 and 5 year olds, I love holding the little ones who crawl everywhere and cry if you set them down. It makes me want children. I do also notice it seems to increase my sex drive and my desire to procreate (not just "oh I want kids" it makes me liteally want to not pull out or where a condom during sex). A bad thing if I had a gf or a fwb who was not on birth control. But definitely fun when I get off work and decide to workout.
I do have a feeling that the "men are designed to nurture" aspect is slightly askewed. I mean I know men who come in with their babies will have trouble leaving them when they start crying. The moms on the other hand don't care lol. Their children will be hysterical and its just "K bye!"
You could look at this and hypothesize that women are not meant as nurturers since they leave their children. But we know that's not the case. As my friend so kindly explained. "As a mom, you get used to crying and stuff. It doesn't make you feel good that your childs crying but when your exposed to it all day you know what's a "bad" cry and a cry because they're just being babies. Dads don't know any different. You could have a baby crying because it just is crying and the dad will go to any length to make it stop simply cuz he just doesn't know or understand."
Some dads learn it too Ducy. It's just a matter of spending a lot of time with your kids.
Although it seems that women are rather prone to acting on their own children's noises. Did you know that even when the baby is still asleep but alters his breathing pattern and makes little sounds with his lips (about to wake up because he's hungry) the mother will naturally slowly wake up and her breasts will start lactating? Especially if the baby is in bed with you, nature makes it possible to breastfeed immediately, without hardly a cry from the baby. This doesn't seem to work on dads; baby first needs to be very upset and crying his lungs out to get dad to wake up from his deep sleep. And then he still needs to prepare the milk ;)
Since you work at the child care, you probably also know that once the parent is out of sight, children usually calm down. Sometimes instantly. So it wasn't such a bad cry :)
Although I do think kids sometimes become genuinely upset. Particularly when their cry isn't responded to or is responded to negatively. Example: a toddler I was babysitting was no longer crying when the parents left, but was basically depressed and motionless. Whereas after the crying I just hugged her and dried her tears and within 5 minutes it was like nothing ever happened, it was now almost impossible to cheer her up. Finally it came out, while she looked at the ground; "I'm not allowed to cry, he? Then I have to sit on the naughty step, right?". Astonished by this I asked a very unnecessary question; "Who told you that?" "Mommie and daddy. And then I'm not allowed to snuggle... I like to snuggle". She looked up at me with tears welling up. I told her that I understood it was hard to say goodbye to her parents in the morning. And that if she was sad, she could cry and I'd never punish her for it. I would just cuddle and hold her, just like I always had. After I had said that, she came up to me to hug and was a very happy toddler all day. I did feel a bit of a predicament of ethics coming up; what if she cried and the parents would really instruct me to punish her? Yet who rewarded me the next morning; a very happy toddler who wanted to snuggle :) Apparently the reassurance was all she really needed. Her parents were thrilled by this sudden change "We really didn't know what to do anymore and it just suddenly cleared up on it's own."
I like the point of view of RR when she describes other species. I am a animal freak where I love to study the nature of animals and thier behavior, that is why my major in study is zoology and marine biology. A good example is wolves, they do have the tendency to be very aggressive but when they become alpha male they have responsibilities to their pack and pups. they must be gentle with them but also protective. If it's natural for wolves and other species than humans are just the same. for women though I'd like to say that we are MAMA Bears, sorry to say but Don't fuck with a mama bear with her cub. Check on youtube where a mother bear attacks a full male right after hibernation wear shes looking for food for her cub. She almost murdered the male..lol now thats protection haha
Its natural for chimpanzees to fling feces, does it mean its natural for human to do it?
Sorry I had to poke a hole in that logic.
And RR I'm sorry I didn't mean to infer that fathers are clueless, it really is the amount of time they spend with the child. Some dads are just like moms. I think the decrease in testosterone is interesting, but the truth will never be known. Maybe test levels drop after child bith because a male has succeeded in procreation and therefore his "mission" is complete? It would explain why men don't become dads till they see the child. I mean if a man can't see a child, how does he know his jobs complete? He must spread the seed more. But out comes a baby and its "Hey I win! Let's do something else now"
Just throwing out random thoughts lol.
Ok! Ducy of course not all species have the correct way of male traits of a father. I was giving examples from species that are good fathers, thank you very much. I agree though on what you say about a father isn't a father until he sees the child, their father instinct kicks in.
[QUOTE=sexgoddess1;274119] If it's natural for wolves and other species than humans are just the same.[/QUOTE]
Im just pointing out a flaw in your debate. Yes a lot of species do have "motherly instincts" in the fathers.
I think that fathers should maintain that "Alpha Male" mentality around their children. To a lesser degree but still. If a child isn't raised with SOME tough love, they never really develop inner strength. The best thing my parents did wasn't "motherly love" cuddly crap my mother did. It was the tough love that my father did that made me hate him, yet respect him. I wouldn't be as brave or as hard working if it weren't for the tough love my father had for me. I mean when I become a father, I would rather my children hate me and be hard working, respectable people that to love me and be lazy, poor excuses for people.
If they could love me and be hard working then awesome. But if I have to be "hated" for them to be successful and well rounded adults then so be it.
Children need love and security to develop their inner strength. If your home isn't safe, welcoming and encouraging, then why would you ever learn to love and express yourself? Why would you ever be welcoming to another human being?
Why do people want to put their children through things they hated in their childhood, suddenly thinking it's now the best approach? Things your parents did aren't by definition right, just because you turned out ok.
Specifically; Ducy, why would you want your children to learn that hate and respect go hand in hand? Frankly; I don't even understand the concept of respecting and hating smashed together... Parents are our first rolemodel of men, women and relationships. It's often what we subconsciously seek to recreate later in life. Not all is lost; anything can happen between parents and even from the worst of relationships the children can grow up to become great adults. It's certainly not impossible to recode your rolemodels from childhood, but damn: it isn't easy. Meaning in this supposed scenario, your future daughter would have quite a chance to search for men she hates yet respects and will probably marry one of them... That doesn't sound like a happy result to me... Does it?
I do agree that raising a child with two parents has it's benefits for both parents and child. I think that when two people are caring for a child, you do not only have the practical benefit, but also that of balancing eachother. Who else will ask you or will you ask whether you are being too protective/easy/hard on your kid? Someone with who you can discuss your worries, because (s)he knows you and your child in ways other people don't.
I'm not saying hate and respect go hand in hand. I hated my dad as a child. He traveled a lot, he would come home and yell at me, make me do things I hated. He always compared me to others. When he was my basketball coach, I never got praised I always go compared to someone else. I thought he was a jerk. Now that I have grown, I realize he was making me a better person. My hard work and determination was from him. I push myself harder to excel because I learned as a child even though I do good in my eyes, there is always room to do better.
I love my father and I have a deep respect for him without his tough love I wouldn't be who I am today. I realized that he wasn't "there" as a child because he was working to give me advantages that he never had. He gave up his chance to see me grow in order to make my life easier. And I know it hurt him.
Its complicated and I know I'm explaining it totally wrong but I don't mean I'm going to make my kids hate me. I'm going to push them the way my father did. And its funny because I know that when my father was there, he always did things to help me. I let the things he did "wrong" (in my eyes) askew the things he did "right". He took me to the hospital when I was hurt. He would sit in the hallway near my doo at night to help me fall asleep because I was afraid the monsters would get me. Even though he had tons of paper work and wound up working till 3am to finish it. He would be the one to help me when I was sick and he did the little things that helped me. But of course as a child you hold grudges.
I hope my kids will grow up right. I hope they have everything in their life. I will work as hard as I need to in order to make sure they have all the "cards" to get farther in life. Even if it means I stay up for hous on end doing work at night. If I have to travel for a month and miss out on them getting an award in school, just so they can go to a better school then fine. I mean I may sound like an idiot saying it but I just find the commercial from the 90's true. A man is standing in his yard. Talking about how kids will never raise their (future) kids like their parents. Candy whenever they want, no bed time, school optional. That's how they'll raise their kids. But then he goes on to say that if they love their children, then they will.
There are those who think "motherly love" is cuddly crap but - sorry, it isn't that. There are those who think 'fatherly love' is some sort of tough stuff 'make him a man' crap. Sorry, wrong again.
Love is all about giving a damn, giving children room to excel or fail while holding a safety net beneath them, counseling - NOT with a fist, and TEACHING the lessons required for them to become an adult from how to run a budget to how to mow the lawn and wash dishes.
For example: two parents are better because then the child SEES how two people work out disagreements, build and maintain relationships, arrive at decisions, divide up chores, ask for help, etc etc etc. Demonstration is much more powerful than mere words.
A house filled with love and joy makes a child stronger than anything else.
I agree with EEK! I was raised in a abusive home but my dad knew how to show us love. let me explain. My dad just came back from the Gulf War and was not diagnosed with post dramatic stress, he was a divorced man raising two children on his own and having a plumbing business he created. he would wake up every night screaming from the burning men that was in his dreams that became realities. he did not know how to handle everything on his own but he constantly tried to be there for my older sister and I. My mother abused us and my daddy spanked us and neglected us. though he spoiled us and he loved us. Now he is a christian father, without work still having dreams but they are rare. e helps my grandmother while she is in the nursing home. My father had to learn from hardship to become the man he is today. I wouldn't ask it any other way. I am strong and I no when the signs of abuse are, and I am mature in many ways, yes, I still have lots to learn but without love and sacrifice then what is a father for. I didn't have joy as much as I do now and that's what counts. I forgive easy and I am slow to anger. I know what i don't want and what my future children do not have to go through. I will fight to have my children, for the life they should have should be the best I can offer, the rest is up to them when they become adluts we just teach them the basics.
Ducy, I see what you mean now. And I can understand how a relationship with parents is filled with contradiction. Believe me, I know ;) And it's just so that parents can never do everything right. I'm sure I'll make a hell lot of unintentional mistakes! But personally, when it comes to things I'd want to do as a parent, I differentiate between the things I did like my parents did for me and the things I don't, combined with some knowledge on child-development. And I hope that will keep me on the right track some day:rolleyes:
My opinion would be that positive growth is to be preferred. Not becoming a better person from the anger of being pushed down, but from the glow that pulls you up from the inside. By that I do not mean overloading with compliments and constantly telling it's better than anyone else, even when it's clear it's not. That's putting a different kind of pressure on a kid it does not need. I'm trying to say there's nothing wrong with honest compliments. You should see how many adults can't stand praise, because they have become unable to receive it. There's also nothing wrong with letting the kid decide how it went today. It's a great way to learn whether your child is under- or overestimating himself. And I like it when focus is not as much on being best compared to others, but how a child performs on it's own levels. After all; you'd eventually want him to depend on his own strength later in life. When it comes to sports or other hobbies and leisure activities; that he simply enjoyed himself. Children have to do and learn so many things, they shouldn't forget to just have fun and play. And we shouldn't forget how much children learn from just that :)