Oral veto (long)

[Pill]

I can't say, at my tender age and with longest lasting relationship having lasted but a fraction of the time you and your wife have been together, that I've been in a situation like yours. I can say, though, that I've had the experience of being with someone who is as inexperienced and un-sexual as they come, and being the one who has poked and prodded her in the direction of discovering her own sexuality... She's gone from someone who never masturbated to someone who does regularly, and from someone who couldn't be physically aroused by my tenderest efforts with hand or tongue to someone who gets wet at what sometimes seems like the drop of a hat, and LOVES cunnilingus.

What I wish to convey is how I think this came about.

I suspected that my girlfriend's lack of response was not due to some deficit in my sexual technique; there was no technical 'key' that would unlock her sexuality. It sounds like your wife is much the same: Her problem isn't with how she's being stimulated but rather with how she reacts to stimulation.

In my girlfriend's case, I believe that this was both because of her inexperience and her attitudes towards sex. She had not had what I would call a 'sex positive' upbringing. Not especially sex-negative, either... More like 'we don't talk about that.' It sounds to me like you have ample reason to suspect that your wife's change in sexual response is at least partly due to some change in her attitudes regarding sex and sexuality, which is why I dare to venture that my girlfriend's path towards what I would call a healthier sexuality is one your wife could walk.

Firstly there is the matter of how one goes about attempting to change another person's attitudes. Overt efforts at persuasion are likely to meet with defeat. Social psych research has shown that when a person knows that someone else is attempting to persuade them, they are less likely to be persuaded. I therefore suggest that you avoid doing so, and instead try to persuade her in a more subtle manner: Obliquely introduce her to the way that YOU view sexuality, and allow those notions to roll around in her head some.

I think that introducing the concept of a 'healthy' and 'natural' sexuality is a very important step. If she is indeed hewing closely to an indoctrinated view of sexuality, then (obliquely!) give her OTHER views to consider, and maybe she'll decide she likes them better. Find ways to expose her to sex-positive material, once again WITHOUT making it obvious that you are doing so intentionally and with the intent to persuade her.

It may seem that I am beleaguering this point, and I suppose I am. It is a very important point. It may also seem manipulative, and by some definitions it may be, but as long as it isn't done with deception I don't regard it as morally questionable.

Exposure to information on the physical/mental/spiritual benefits of a more relaxed and open sexuality might help, as well as exposure to the idea that many people actually view sexuality in such lights.

You probably get the drift. Over time, subtly suggesting to your wife that a less restrictive view of sexuality is healthier and more natural may change her attitudes.

This is more or less how things went with my girlfriend, except that because she had a less actively *negative* attitude towards sexuality I was able to be somewhat more explicit about my desire to change her attitudes. And if you feel that your wife can handle it without becoming defensive (and you're comfortable doing so), you can try telling her that you think that her attitudes are less than healthy, but from the way things SOUND I'm not sure that'll work very well.

[Bouledoux]

Originally Posted by Pill

Exposure to information on the physical/mental/spiritual benefits of a more relaxed and open sexuality might help, as well as exposure to the idea that many people actually view sexuality in such lights.

You probably get the drift. Over time, subtly suggesting to your wife that a less restrictive view of sexuality is healthier and more natural may change her attitudes.

My wife has very fixed opinions about certain matters. When she makes up her mind on something, it's set, like concrete. Her convictions can crumble, though. It usually happens in a rush, from something she experiences directly rather than from something she reasons out.

I think maybe if she heard or was exposed to the sort of information you suggest from other people she respected it might influence her; but from me, she would know what was at the back of my mind, and would resist all the harder. In fact, I think that's more or less what has happened.

That's why I had hoped going to a therapist might help.

Any direct appeal by me to my wife's rational mind seems a waste of time. I go along with Freud's notion of each of us being made up of an ego (our responsible adult), an id (our irresponsible child) and a superego (our concerned parent). Hopefully, in our sex lives, we can indulge the child in us, within the bounds of adult reason, without our parent proclaiming this is wrong.

I want to indulge the child in me by enjoying sex as much as possible; my adult is okay with this; so is my parent. My wife has a child who I'm sure would like nothing better than to indulge herself; but the adult in her has become far less accommodating, over time; and her parent is stricter and more vocal than before. In my opinion, her child is sexually subdued.

My task, as I see it, is not to try and persuade her adult of the error of its ways (I've tried); still less try to convince her parent it's misguided (an impossible task); but to try and liberate her child.

Does that make sense? It's how to do it that's troubling me!

[dlb]

So Bouledoux it appears that your concerns range far wider than an "oral veto."
Pill is on to something in his post. One thing that could change her attitudes and thinking would be for her to have contact with other women, whom she trusts, who are comfortable with exploring sexually, perfecting their techniques and learning new ones and are comfortable with enjoying sex and with the idea that is is a good thing to keep their partners sexually happy. I don't know if she has friends like these, she probably does. I know that I owe a lot in my married sex life ,from basic BJs to some advanced kinks, to my wife's acquaintances and exposure to other people's tastes.

[Bouledoux]

Originally Posted by dlb

So Bouledoux it appears that your concerns range far wider than an "oral veto."

Well, sort of. I mean, whenever we engaged in oral sex (both fellatio and cunnilingus) I got the distinct impression my wife was relishing every moment of it; but I also got the impression a part of her, which got left behind in the heat of the moment, remained unenthusiastic. This part is what now seems to have grown to dominate her sexual behaviour. It started off vetoing oral sex, and now it's also vetoing any sort of excitement that might lead to oral sex. So, the absence of oral sex, which was my original concern, has led to a decrease in her relish for all forms of abandonment during sex, which has made me realise there is more to my sense of loss than I originally thought.

The odd thing is, we are making love more often, in a greater variety of settings, with greater freedom (possibly due to children leaving home and no more conception worries) than ever before; and yet, there's a massive taboo around what we can and can't do that seems to have diminished our ability to give ourselves wholeheartedly to each other.

Unfortunately, I don't believe my wife has the sort of friend who would talk about sex openly, if at all. If they did, she probably wouldn't reciprocate. She might talk about it, in a clinical way, with her sister; but not in any personal detail. She would definitely consider her sex life too private for that. She found talking to the therapist, who was a complete stranger, very uncomfortable.

[Pill]

Sounds like she isn't in a very sex-positive environment! (aside from her husband)

One of the few effective ways I know of to shake someone who is set in his or her ways is, in two words, peer pressure.

Peer pressure gets a bad rep because it's a term associated with kids getting other kids to drink and do stupid things. The truth is, though, the mechanisms underlying peer pressure are necessary for a cohesive society.

Anything you can do to maximize her exposure to other people (especially groups of people, and in person is of course by far most effective) with different attitudes will probably help, bit by bit.

[Bouledoux]

Originally Posted by Pill

Anything you can do to maximize her exposure to other people (especially groups of people, and in person is of course by far most effective) with different attitudes will probably help, bit by bit.

Short of taking her along to a swingers club, I'm not sure how this could be achieved; but I do think it's a good idea, nevertheless. Most of the contemporary sexual influences on my wife do seem to be negative ones, whether they come from books, films, current affairs or even word of mouth. Most of what affects her seems to strike a chord with her background morality, which gives it double verification, in her eyes.

We had a discussion last night which was quite revealing. It concerned her breasts. She wears no bra and I like nothing better than to reach from behind and cup them in my hands. I also like kissing, nibbling, nuzzling, them. She has recently seemed to endure rather than enjoy overt sexual attention to her breasts, and last night I asked why. Specifically, I demonstrated what I liked to do, and asked if it was pleasurable or not.

It turned out that she found it pleasurable but that that pleasure set up a conflict in her head. She claimed her body was receiving messages from my stimulation that asked her breasts to produce milk, and that that was not something she wanted to happen, because she believes it is for babies only. I agreed that that was the purpose of breast milk; but I doubted she would produce any from the relatively innocuous stimulation I was giving. (Anyone who has experienced a baby sucking on one of their fingers can attest to the extraordinary vigour of their demand).

It then turned out that she thought sexual attention to the breasts, and by definition, sexual indulgence on the part of women, were a prime cause of breast cancer. She believed repeated attempts on the part of the body to produce milk when it was clearly unable to do so compromised its normal functioning. As an adjunct to this, she suggested breasts had come to the fore in terms of attractiveness to men, and sources of sexual pleasure to women, only as a result of men denying women the right to breastfeed, through mass production and marketing of bottled milk.

So there I was. I could touch her breasts and she found that acceptably pleasurable; but if I did any more than that, although she still found it pleasurable, concern started mounting in her that further indulgence might not only be doing her harm, but would somehow exonerate 'man's' perfidy. That concern then began to turn what was previously pleasurable into an irritance.

In a nutshell, why should I, being a man, and therefore indirectly responsible for denying women their right to breastfeed, with the hidden motive of guarding and deifying the breast as a sexual object, which as a result, caused breast cancer, be rewarded, firstly by being allowed to stimulate her in this area, and secondly by her finding the experience pleasurable?

Interestingly, the only time my wife openly relishes breast stimulation is in the later stages of intercourse. Again, it seems she loses her inhibitions only when she's moved beyond a certain threshold.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm ridiculing my wife. To a certain extent, I share her views; but I also happen to believe breasts are as valid an erogenous zone as any other, that 'sexual suckling' in not injurious to their health, and that she shouldn't be afraid of allowing herself to experience pleasure through them.

I don't believe any amount of logic expounded by me will change my wife's underlying views on this subject. I may, however, be able to bring forward her 'inhibition threshold', somewhat. At any rate, that's what I'm working on at the moment. However, peer pressure, as you describe it, might well help to change her beliefs.

I'm a member of a men's group. We sit and chat, every month or so, on various subjects. We've never talked about sex, though; or not in any serious, detailed way. Maybe women's groups exist in our neighbourhood; I've heard women are more likely to talk intimately amongst themselves than men.

[EvilEvilKitten]

Sex begins in the brain.

Your attitudes regarding sex, sexual matters, and sexual practices will influence your sex life and the pleasure you enjoy during sex profoundly, as you all have discovered.

Yes, The Program is deliberately vague and undetailed precisely because I, its authoress, cannot forsee your partner's responses. You are to explore and modify based upon the responses you receive. Take your time, go slowly, take notes of what works and what doesn't - for your partner.

There is no 'secret silver bullet' - you must invest the time and attention to sex to get the most from sex. I have spent the better part of 40 years studying sex, discussing sex, investigating sex, and having sex and I still do not know everything. Close but not yet.

I would recommend getting with your local swing/Lifestyle group because she will be able to dscuss matters with women who have 'been there' and have gone through it. Discussion helps.

[dlb]

In the better swing clubs in my area there is an area for newbies and those curious about the lifestyle to mingle with the "regulars" and become accustomed to the atmosphere and get to know people in then lifestyle. There is absolutely NO pressure to get involved and voyeurs are welcome. Is this the usual most places EvilEvilKitten? Do swing groups usually have events like the munches that BDSM groups have?

I think you and Pill and I all agree that Mr. and Mrs. Bouledoux need to get out together and see that normal everyday people are able to have great sex lives even if they don't get into the kinkier things that some of us might do.

[Bouledoux]

Originally Posted by dlb

I think you and Pill and I all agree that Mr. and Mrs. Bouledoux need to get out together and see that normal everyday people are able to have great sex lives even if they don't get into the kinkier things that some of us might do.

Sometime it's hard to imagine many of the people I see walking down the street, or sitting in trains and buses, have sex at all, let alone with one another, at swingers clubs. Mind you, I did spy a dogging couple in the woods near us, one day.

I've been looking into my wife and me taking an erotic holiday together. Somewhere like Hedo, in Jamaica.

[Pill]

Well, I've exhausted my supply of novice psychobabble. I can't think of anything else to say besides good luck... And your wife's lucky to have a husband who approaches this kind of thing in such a careful and intelligent manner.

P.S. Freud was full of brown. He tried to convince everyone that they should all shoot up with cocaine, and reversed his own theories several times on more or less the same evidence. When psychology is taught, Freud is held up as an example of what NOT to do. He is on my list of people to slap if I ever get to travel through time, right next to Plato and Thomas Aquinas. His theories are not a sound basis for any sort of endeavor.
[/rant]