Oral veto (long)

[Bouledoux]

Growl, then smack.

Okay, I'll try it.

[edm]

Why not use your writing abilities and write her a letter besides everything else you are doing.
Writing gives you a better chance to express your feelings, your thoughts, your fears, your memories and it gives her a chance to read, re-read, re-read and think, and think. Usually when we hear something, we react. When we read, we have the chance, if we want to, to read again and think.

You, better than anybody else, know what will work and not work with your wife. I am just giving you ideas that I would try. Thank God, I do not have that problem. My wife and I enjoy oral sex all the time.

[Bouledoux]

Originally Posted by edm

Why not use your writing abilities and write her a letter besides everything else you are doing.
Writing gives you a better chance to express your feelings, your thoughts, your fears, your memories and it gives her a chance to read, re-read, re-read and think, and think. Usually when we hear something, we react. When we read, we have the chance, if we want to, to read again and think.

That is a great idea. I'll keep it in reserve, for if all else fails. Mind you, we do have some friends, who have now split up, who did something similar. The wife complained to the husband for years about certain aspects of his behaviour that she felt were causing their increasing disenchantment with each other. Since nothing changed, she wrote him a letter, detailing how she felt. Shortly afterwards, they went their separate ways. When the husband told me about this, I asked how he had reacted to the letter. "Oh, I threw it on the fire", he said.

I'm not at all sure how my wife would react to a letter from me; but I think I would need a stiff drink before daring to mail it. I remember meeting a lovely bloke once who seemed on the surface the epitome of forwardness. As we got talking he said he was in love with this wonderful girl but he just couldn't summon up the nerve to tell her. So, he had placed a personal ad in a newspaper, pouring out his heart there, instead. The problem was, he couldn't bring himself to buy the newspaper, hand it to her, and direct her attention to the relevant portion.

You're so right, though. When we talk about oral sex, there's a hidden edge to our words that's impossible to disguise, to which we can't help but react: we're usually squaring up to each other, the moment we start; and it's downhill from then on.

[mikkiji]

Some of your issues I could have written myself 10 years ago, when my late wife began going thru "the change". She'd been my "first", although she'd had many lovers before me. We'd been married for decades as well, with a slow, steady decline in the frequency, variety and intensity of our lovemaking from about our 20th anniversary on. Big difference from you--she was always multi-orgasmic and always expected at least 2, if not 5 orgasms when we made love, and she would usually accept my giving her oral, to orgasm, prior to penetration, AND she normally liked to be on top. Plus, she had never been a Catholic or even a Christian! BUT, as the years went by, she got more into "getting right to the main event", and grew more and more bored and impatient with foreplay. IF she ever did give me oral, it was cursory, maybe a minute or two, never more, just a few licks and then "Put it in now!" It was as if, as our marriage progressed, she became more like a man in her sexual responses and I more like a woman, in response. I finally DID write her that letter, many pages long (I'm also a writer), detailing why I wanted intimacy and passion back in our marriage, setting out a vision of how our marriage could be more loving and fulfilling. It was a huge risk, I felt, but I also felt that I had little choice, because the marriage was at stake. I recently found that letter, while going thru papers preparing to move out of the house we shared for over 20 years. I know she always loved me, and she DID enjoy sex with me. I desired her physically always. Her later-in-life disinterest was such a rejection of and mystery to me. She was suspicious of any caress or kiss--she feared it might make me want "more." Like with you, French kissing all but vanished.

Long story short--I had a 2-year affair a dozen years ago, which she suspected but never really wanted to know about--it was a long-distance, very occasional "don't ask, don't tell" sort of thing. I ended it because I loved my wife and felt I could live with the lack of intimacy. I figured sex twice a month would have to do, and I'd take care of my desires beyond that by myself. After "the letter", things did get briefly better, but tapered off again. Then I had the heart attack, then she got cancer, and it seemed we fell madly in love. She was in remission for a couple of years, and although sick from chemo and radiation, wanted me more and more. When 2006 turned to 2007, her New Year's Resolution was, OUT OF THE BLUE, "We should have more sex." Who was I to disagree? Six weeks later the cancer returned and 8 weeks after that, she was dead. Do what you need to do as a couple NOW--don't waste time--you never know how much longer you have...
Michael

[EvilEvilKitten]

NO NO NO

Nothing but face to face and heart to heart is going to change this.
You need to get SERIOUS and be seen by her as being SERIOUS which a letter - just another peice of paper that she'll read when she gets around to it.

Stop being so diffident! Start being demanding.
You're fighting for the rest of your love-life - so just how important is it to you, buddy?

Speak to loverofcurves - he had the same issue, used The Program - and now, well, they're not getting divorced any time soon! *EG* His lady has become the Lioness he always knew she was. From zero to 60 in less than 4 months! (yes he gave me permission to use him as a referral)

[Bouledoux]

Michael,

Your post is a salutary reminder to seize the moment. We may not only have one life, but we only have one life as the flesh and blood people we now are; and I can't count the number of times I've heard stories of those on their death beds regretting not what they did with their time but what they didn't do.

I've found these last three years very revealing, even though they've coincided with the oral drought. It's been like rolling a large, heavy stone from where it's always laid, and finding all manner of obscure truths hiding underneath.

The oral veto from my wife coincided with her general loss of interest in sex. I was patient, initially, because I put this down to the menopause; but then I laid it on the line concerning initiation and frequency. My wife agreed surprisingly wholeheartedly, and we addressed that problem and have solved it. However, although I felt completely justified in insisting she be more sexually active, and responsive, I haven't felt the same certainty about insisting that I decide what we actually do, sexually.

The unfortunate corollary of this has been twofold. One, there has been an increase in the amount of sex we enjoy, but a decrease in emotional contact during sex. Two, there has been a diminution of variety.

It is, as you say, "as if, as our marriage progressed, she became more like a man in her sexual responses and I more like a woman ..."

What I've realised, recently, is that I crave, sexually, not so much the fellatio and cunnilingus I don't have, but what those practices represent for me: passion, intensity, focus; and maybe most of all, intimacy.. When my wife and I engage in sex these days, although it might be much more frequently than before, and although it might be at any moment of the day, and in any place in the house or garden (all fantastic advances from the norm), there's still something lacking.

A couple of times, my wife has mentioned not wanting to 'lose control', sexually. It is as if she fears doing something she would later regret. Unfortunately, it's precisely that aspect of our lovemaking that I find so attractive, and miss so much. It's also what I imagine lies at the heart of the oral veto: my wife used to 'lose control' regularly, and during those times oral sex became something she was happy giving and receiving. When she came back to earth, she must have regretted this. As time went by, she has evidently decided 'staying on earth' feels a lot safer!

By 'loss of control' I don't mean everything goes out of the window; but I do remember reading a novel once which had a sex scene where the narrator, describing it, said he was so consumed with passion that if a stranger had come into the room with a knife and proceeded to plunge it into his back he would barely have noticed. It's that sense of both of us being utterly consumed by the occasion that seems to have gone missing; and every ploy I summon up fails to rekindle it.

The only sexual activity that instantly transports my wife from a 'butterfly' state of mind to a more animalistic engagement with the here and now, is intercourse. Anything that delays this is barely tolerated. So, a kiss and a cuddle that aren't going to lead to anything more are fine; and a kiss and a cuddle that are going to lead to more intense kissing and cuddling are fine, too, up to a point; but the reality of the more intense kissing and cuddling acts as a stimulus for her to either want penetration as soon as possible, or if that is out of the question, to wait until it is possible, rather than prolong the agony.

I say 'agony' because my wife gives every impression that time spent in a state of sexual excitement, even low grade sexual excitement, where she hasn't become properly aroused, that doesn't involve penetration, or near penetration, is not just wasted time, but painful for her to be engaged in.

For a short period, I suggested we make love without penetration, at all. For her, that fell outside the definition of lovemaking. She implied it was cruel of me to insist on it. So we tried delaying penetration for a fixed period of time; but she got bored with the wait. We tried Karezza - penetration but no orgasm, for either of us. That was enjoyable, but her desire was to sleep almost as soon as we had got started, whereas mine was to continue, and skirt around the edge of orgasm, for a while, which, again, she found 'painful'. We tried sensate focus, which frankly, we would have been better off employing on tailor's dummies.

I think it boils down to what we're willing to pay attention to and focus on. Everyone is different, in this respect. I've discussed the issue with my wife, and she agrees it's a problem. There are innumerable activities she engages in so wholeheartedly it is often difficult for me to get her attention. In many ways, I consider her my teacher in the art of 'living for the moment'. She can work in the garden, clean windows, cook, play with children, do Sudukos, with a commitment and an attentiveness and longevity that dissolves to nothing as soon as we engage in lovemaking. Too often, she asks if 'we're going to finish soon', when I feel as though we've barely started, or 'I'm tired', when I'm feeling on fire. It's as if, in her mind, with every one of her favoured occupations, she is saying, to herself, "just five minutes more", because she is enjoying it so much, whereas when making love, she is hearing herself say, "That's enough, now", very soon after starting.

The odd part of this is that she enjoys sex; she just doesn't seem to be able to enjoy it as much as she did, which was probably never as much as she could.

Bouledoux

[Bouledoux]

Originally Posted by EvilEvilKitten

NO NO NO

Nothing but face to face and heart to heart is going to change this.
You need to get SERIOUS and be seen by her as being SERIOUS which a letter - just another peice of paper that she'll read when she gets around to it.

Stop being so diffident! Start being demanding.
You're fighting for the rest of your love-life - so just how important is it to you, buddy?

Speak to loverofcurves - he had the same issue, used The Program - and now, well, they're not getting divorced any time soon! *EG* His lady has become the Lioness he always knew she was. From zero to 60 in less than 4 months! (yes he gave me permission to use him as a referral)

Well, yes!

I looked at posts by loverofcurves. His last one says:

" ... the interesting thing was the after effect she needed some rest but upon awakening went after me!! This has never happened before! again details to follow since then we have been following EEK's THE PROGRAM now going into it's 2nd week with some amazing results!! It's like the scene in Young Frankenstein where Madeline Kahn's prissy JAP(Jewish American Princess) becomes a wild sensuous she beasty - gotta run but I PROMISE UPON PAIN OF MY WEE VIBE SHORTING OUT that I will file the full report by tomorrow evening or sooner."

Where is this "full report"?

Anyway, I get his point. And yours.

As I said, The Program is waiting for my wife's return home for full - or partial - implementation.

[EvilEvilKitten]

Unfortunately, he's been too busy "ahem"" to make a full report.

[Bouledoux]

Fantastic!. That's the sort of schedule I admire.

[Bouledoux]

I thought I would provide an update, even though it tells against me, to some extent. First off, I haven't yet tried the Program. I told myself I would, as I waited for my wife to return from a trip overseas. That was nearly two months ago. Then I told myself I would wait for warmer weather, as my wife is extraordinarily sensitive to cold. When we make love, she's very aware of the temperature, particularly when we begin, and usually has to be partially clothed or covered. Myself, I could be outside in the snow, and not turn a hair. Anyway, I decided I would wait for the sort of weather where it is possible to lie around naked with no thought of either clothes or sheets, because it seemed to me that the Program required my wife to not do a great deal, and I was concerned she would pay more attention to the question of being cold than her own excitation, which would defeat the point.

At the back of my mind, I did wonder if I was prevaricating for other reasons; but the only ulterior motive I could discern was fear that any eventual attempt of the Program on my part wouldn't have the desired effect.

What effect did I desire? I started this thread because I was missing oral sex; so, to have that back would be wonderful. But I have came to realise what I am really missing, of which mutually enthusiastic oral sex is a part, is my wife as an overtly, brazenly sexual being. Although we make love regularly, and both enjoy it, I'm belatedly realising that my wife doesn't become truly involved - passionately, vocally, unequivocally - until she is maybe three quarters of the way to orgasm. Anything short of half-way, and it is as if she is only joining in with part of her mind. The other part might be contemplating any number of other subjects. And, of course, because she isn't completely 'there', she doesn't become aroused easily, which further delays her metamorphosis into a sex tigress.

So, one fear I had was that any attempt on my part to do the Program, which by its nature has a long, slow build up to eventual orgasm, could result in my wife only having half a mind for what I was doing. That might make it tricky to persevere - along the lines of talking to someone who isn't really listening. I got so concerned about this - while waiting for hotter weather - that I began to think the instructions for the Program left a bit to be desired. I felt they weren't precise enough, for me. It was like a recipe that was too vaguely worded; I wanted something more exact.

As it happened, I came across what I thought of as an alternative, minutely choreographed version of the Program. It began with a full body massage, which led to an erotic massage, ending in a detailed labial massage, followed by very slow cunnilingus, a clitoral orgasm, then manual stimulation, a g-spot orgasm, and finally a mixture of both oral and manual, with a blended orgasm. What I liked was the precision of the instructions. I printed them out and tried to learn them by heart.

The anticipated hot weather arrived. We agreed a time, I got the oil out, and we started. I expended quite a bit of effort with the full body massage, so I was more than a trifle disappointed after I had moved on to the labial massage, by which time, according to the instructions, my wife should have been so 'hot' it would be all I could do to prevent her reaching down and fondling her own genitals. In fact, she had not stirred; there was no flush of excitement on her face; her breasts were not engorged; her breathing remained placid. It was, unfortunately, as if I had been trying to arouse a dead fish.

As I progressed with the labial massage, feeling rising confidence that this, at least, would produce some sort of response, my wife asked me why I had omitted to massage her arms. I was nonplussed. The answer was, the arms hadn't been part of the deal! The 'full' body massage had left them out. I mumbled petulantly that her job was not to wonder about what I was, or wasn't, doing; but to simply enjoy the experience of it. She then said she couldn't do that as she was concentrating on remembering what I did so she could do the same in return!

We moved on. The labial massage was supposed to be followed by a very detailed, extraordinarily slow cunnilingus session. It sounded just the ticket; but, obviously, we couldn't do that. Had my wife been finely primed, I might have attempted the merest brush of my mouth on her genitals, especially since she had a scarf covering her eyes, and might not have immediately discerned what part of my anatomy was doing what; but she was obviously more acutely keyed in to the exact practicalities of what was taking place than the sensations produced by it.

Following the cunnilingus section was manual stimulation. We skipped straight to that. This required first and foremost that my wife was at least partially aroused. She clearly wasn't. Matters degenerated from that point into a not atypical masturbatory session where my wife got stiffer and stiffer as she tried muscularly to 'reach orgasm' while I fingered her clitoris until she did.

That effectively ended matters. My wife has never shown the slightest interest in a second orgasm following her first, at least not on the same day; so my hopeful request that we could start again fell on stony ground. Instead, she said she would return the favour the next day. I didn't have the heart to say that form of favour wasn't what I wanted so much as for her to eat me alive, there and then!

This isn't intended to be a gripe at my wife. She responded to what I did, and I think what I did - which wasn't the Program - was at fault. I'm no longer convinced that the recipe I had is worth following - at least with her. Maybe no recipe of that sort is. I'm absolutely positive I have the key to unlock the door that will transport her to a place of sexual abandonment, well before the last stages of intercourse, but for a long time I've felt I've been fumbling with a changed lock, using mostly a bunch of uncut blanks.

I've just sat down and studied The Program again and the differences between it and my 'alternative program' are stark. With what I did, I was following a set of procedures that didn't take into account my wife's responses, or lack of response. I just ploughed on, regardless. Also, I went from Massage (1), through a lukewarm version of Erotic Massage (2) directly to Manual Stimulation (4). Body Worship (3) was not in my recipe; and yet, I think it's probably the most important element of The Program.

So, I'll start again, hopefully tomorrow. Luckily, the weather's looking good for the foreseeable future.