I really really need input

[neverdiplomatic]

I very much need some outside opinions on this. My friends are too close to me to give me valuable input.
Here's the deal. I am 28, my husband is 30. We have been together three and a half years. In the beginning, sex was good. After the birth of our son, I got pregnant again, but the babies didn't survive. After that, my sex drive vanished for a few months. I still slept with him, but I never initiated.
Foreplay was always pretty weak, but he used to make an effort. He and I both go through periods of low to no sex drive at all. Right now we both have no interest in sex. He has made new friends over the past few months and told me today that although he loves me and wants to grow old with me, he feels he can't satisfy me and doesn't want to try. Told me I can go have a physical relationship with someone else if it will make me happy because supposedly he wants me to be happy. He also told me that he intends to continue going out and having fun with other people, including other girls, rather than going out with me at all because they make him feel attractive and fun. He says he needs that and can't get it from me.
I have tried. Many, many times I have tried to get him to go out and do things just with me, away from the kids, so we can just enjoy each other's company.
The thing is, his stance has always been that if I cheat on him, it's over, and that he can never forgive infidelity. I'm thinking perhaps he's telling me this because he's sleeping with someone else and wants to alleviate his guilt by giving me permission to do the same.
Right now, leaving him isn't possible. I have two kids and am taking a course to be a medical office assistant. I have no childcare and no job.

On one hand, his whole "I just want you to be happy" thing is plausible because my grandmother told him about how she and my grandfather were fairly happy, although they both cheated off and on during the marriage. He says it opened his eyes to a lot of things.
On the other hand, why would a guy who has always HATED cheating suddenly tell me I can go bang some other guy is I want, so long as I don't leave him for said other guy?

What do you guys think? I really don't know what to do and am an absolute mess over it right now.

[neverdiplomatic]

That pathetic and hopeless, eh? Oh well. Only forty more years or so to go.

[clare33]

It is not hopeless. That is very common to couples that have experienced the loss of a child. Have you guys tried counseling? It can sound cliche, but I am serious. It really helps to have a rational mediator helping you guys with these issues. I personally do not think the sleeping with other people thing is the best idea. I do not think it will make you or him happy in the long run. I don't know if he is cheating already. Maybe it's just in his head. But I think if you really love him, and want to save your marriage, you should sit down with him and tell him that No, you do not want to sleep with other people, and you do not want him to sleep with other people. Tell him that you want to really try to work through this before giving up. Sleeping with others will lead to bitterness, coldness, jealousy, distance, etc in your relationship. Tell him you love him. Did you guys ever really grieve over the loss of the babies? That can be a big factor. I know it's easier said than done. But if you guys love eachother, want to have a future together, and also care about your son's wellbeing, you should at least try counseling or some other form or working it out.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: One more thing, you say youre 28. You have barely hit your sexual peak. I know your loss of sexual feelings is mostly emotional, but dont count that out. Do not think that you are going to feel like that forever.

[WallyLlama]

Gotta really agree with Clare here...

And add that - as a guy - I can perhaps understand your hubby's frustration. You've pretty much told us in your post that there's nothing he can do... so I'm not sure you can criticize him for "giving up" and even going to the extreme of suggesting you "cheat."

In his own way, he's even told you what a large part of the problem is...

Find a counselor who will help you listen to each other and get back to sharing in common.

[neverdiplomatic]

I have suggested counselling many, many times. He refuses to go for it. In regards to the twins, he was happy about them not making it because he was insisting on an abortion. Basically, he said he would leave if we had any more children. So I doubt if he has ever felt any sense of loss over what happened to them.

I have told him repeatedly that while I can't stop him from sleeping with other people, I have no intention of doing so. I've never cheated and never will. Not worth the pain it causes to everyone concerned.

And I don't recall saying there was nothing he could do. There is plenty he could do if he chose. He could kiss me hello or goodbye. He could buy me flowers once a year or so. He could take me out to dinner. He could show me he actually cares about me. He says he doesn't do foreplay because he doesn't care. Him getting off is what counts. After my first spell of no sex drive ended I made every effort possible. I ordered porn (which he used to enjoy but does not anymore), I took the initiative MANY times, I suggested trying tons of different things, you name it. He is simply not able to get aroused by me (he says by anyone, but who knows?). My lack of a sex drive now stems from the fact that every time we had sex over the past few months I have made to feel like either a hooker or a blow up doll. He demanded blow jobs but refused to so much as spend five minutes trying to turn me on. Whenever he was in the mood, if I wasn't, I would get the silent treatment for a couple of days, followed by whining. Yet, if I'm in the mood, I'm nagging and bothering him.

Therefore, Wally, I am pretty darned sure I have EVERY right to criticize him. Every effort made to keep this relationship going has been made by me. I am expected to take care of his children, his house, pick up after him, do ALL the chores (he won't even make himself coffee), pay the bills, pay the rent, and be his secretary while he gets to go out with other people all the time and have fun while I am stuck at home. I go out maybe once every three months. Always by myself or with one of the few friends I have left where I live. But he wants to grow old with me (his own words). I have told him over and over he does not need to be with me to have a relationship with his children. He says he knows and doesn't want to lose me. But he is completely unwilling to do ANYTHING to prevent that from happening.
I have never in any way made him feel inadequate if he can't perform because I understand what it's like to not be interested in sex. However, telling me that he has completely given up, but forbids me to have friends he doesn't get along with or even consider leaving him for someone else...not okay. I don't deserve that. Not to mention that for someone who wants me to sleep with other men, he sure gets angry if I even say hello to a male friend (completely platonic btw) without okaying it with him.

[clare33]

That is tough. If you don't mind me asking, what are his good qualities? If he didn't care about your children and he seems so insensitive to your grief. Is he worth this pain?

It can be extremely painful to have your partner take you for granted. I know what you mean about little things: kisses, a flower, a card, just a call to say I love you. It doesn't require money or a huge amount of effort. I think that people in long term relationships/marriage NEED to do things to keep their love strong and fresh.

It sounds to be like you have tried a lot. I don't know, maybe if you tell him that if things don't change, you can't stay in this relationship, he will wake up and see what he is doing. But that is never guaranteed. I would just think about if he is worth all of this.

[WallyLlama]

Well... the picture you are painting in your follow up post is a little different that your first... lots more information and a very different flavor.

In the first post it sounded (to me) like you (both, actually) had lost interest in sex, probably as a result of the trauma from losing the twins and my response was based largely on that and the assumption that there was something to fix.

My often stated bias is that it takes two people to make a relationship and it takes two people to break them.

[LittleFury]

I would get your butt to the lawyer, safeguard your account, get ALL of the financial information on him, everything that you can use or might have to use to gain custody of your baby and to safeguard your future. As a law student, I gotta add that this is NOT a legal advice, I suggest that you speak to your attorney.
Here's the thing. Why would you want to stay with a guy that pretty much said that he doesn't care about you? Of course he'll say that he wants to grow old togehter. I mean he got a good little slave at home. And any extra he wants, he gets it on the side anyways. There are many many red flags there. I suggest you live now, before he does and leaves you out on the streets, or before he gets abusive, or before he gives you STD. There are other fish out there. Why waste your time on somethiing that can't return the love that you're willing to give.

[Luvs2plzU]

Life is short and it is precious,you need to have a plan and MOVE ON....or your own health will suffer! peace out

[neverdiplomatic]

I do have a pretty much non-existant sex drive right now. Him not wanting sex right now isn't an issue because we both don't get turned on by anything at the moment. Lots and lots of outside stress. When I DO have a sex drive, it's frustrating due to the fact that he is very selfish in bed.
As far as what are his good qualities: he's intelligent, funny, a good father, and reasonably open-minded and non-prejudiced. If I didn't still love him, I wouldn't be with him at all.
That said, I DO have a specific plan of action. I'm taking a course to get a job superior financially to the ones I've had in the past. I have been squirreling money away so that if and when I DO leave, I will have a safety net so to speak to help the kids and I start over again, and my children are both going into daycare in January (my son isn't old enough until then).
One of the problems is that he insists he doesn't want either of us to leave. As long as I love him and he continues to say this, I'm going to do my best to work on the problems we have. Of course it takes two people to screw things up. I was pretty forthcoming in my original post when I admitted that when my sex drive took a downswing previously, I never initiated. The problems in the bedroom are as much my fault as his.
Other problems, sure! I get jealous and unreasonable, I get annoyed with him for never helping around the house, and I take things too personally. On the other hand, I'm also thoughtful, giving, sympathetic, intelligent, attractive, and unique. I make little gestures every day to show him I appreciate him. The thing is, I'm in a constant state of trying to avoid the negative behaviours and working on being easier to live with. He is the exact opposite.

My current plan of action is this. Tell me what you all think.

I am going to sit him down and tell him that if he honestly wants us to grow old together, then we both have to do some work on our problems. I'm going to suggest three conversations on two different nights. The first one will be his open mike. He can tell me what I do to make him unhappy, what I do that makes him happy, what I don't do that he wishes I would, and what I MUST do to help repair the damage. I am going to listen, NOT argue or defend myself. I am going to let him get everything out and then leave it alone.
The next conversation will simply be a reversal. My turn to talk, his turn to listen.
And the third will be both of us taking turns discussing what we think we are capable of doing to keep this family going.
The rules for all three conversations will be pretty simple. No arguing, no name calling, no defensive rationalization, no interrupting, and no future recrimination for anything discussed.

If I can get him to agree to it I think it may help.