JESUSLAND
by Max Gordon
November 23, 2004
There is a thirteen-year-old boy in America who walks to school this morning. He believes he is a pervert because he is sexually attracted to a boy in his class. Undressing in the locker room for gym, he is terrified he will get an erection or his friends will notice him staring at the other boys and call him a homo.
At night, he lies in bed. He promised God he wouldn't look at pictures of naked men having sex anymore, but he did it again after school. As a punishment, he pinches his penis between his fingernails until he breaks the skin. He believes the pain is good for him. It is only a fraction of the pain that sinners feel when they go to hell, or what Jesus must have felt on the cross.
He sits in church on Sunday and knows the priest is referring to him: deviants whose unnatural desire will keep them from entering the Kingdom of God. When he takes communion, he prays that God will heal the sickness inside him and make him clean and perfect like his Son. He promises to try even harder not to sin than he's ever tried before.
After failing again, he decides he has no more tries left in him. He cannot stop the thoughts or change them. He believes God is disgusted with him and that He refuses to help. He stands looking in the bathroom mirror and wonders if he is what a homo looks like. He thinks of his youngest sister coming home from kindergarten with school papers tucked under her arm, and wonders if the boy from his class is in bed sleeping. He lifts his father's gun and shoots himself in the head.
On January 2, 1997, 14-year-old Robbie Kirkland committed suicide after struggling with his homosexuality for four years. His mother said at the time, "Our family loved, supported and accepted him but could not protect him from the rejection and harassment he experienced at his Catholic schools." On May 8, 1995, Bill Clayton, 17, took a fatal overdose after being hospitalized for depression. He'd been assaulted by a group of boys in his community because of his sexual orientation. Jacob Lawrence Orosco, 17, hanged himself on September 3, 1997, in his mother's home. When Jacob and nine of his friends tried to form a Gay/Straight student alliance at his school, a group of students at a nearby high school formed SAFE-Students against Fags Everywhere.
Anna Wakefield, a lesbian in her 20's from Virginia, hanged herself on February 27, 1997, after being rejected and estranged from her family; Private First Class Barry Winchell, 21, of Kansas City, Missouri, was bludgeoned to death with a baseball bat on July 5, 1999 after rumors that he was gay spread around the post; Steen Fenrich, 19, was killed and dismembered by his stepfather in a homophobic rage, his body found March 21, 2000; Juana Vega, 36, shot in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, November 11, 2001 by her girlfriend's brother, for "turning his sister gay"; Gwen Araujo, a 17-year-old transgender woman from Newark, California, savagely beaten to death on October 3, 2002 by a group of boys at a party; Sakia Gunn, 15, fatally stabbed at a bus stop in Newark, New Jersey, May 11, 2003 after her assailant was told she was a lesbian; Fred Martinez, Jr., a 16-year-old Native American high school student from Cortez, Colorado, found beaten to death, June 21, 2001, his skull crushed with a rock. His 19-year-old killer was heard to have said proudly, "I bug-smashed a fag."
A few days after Kerry's concession, Bill Clinton gave a speech at a conference of the Urban Land Institute in New York. The Daily News quoted him as saying that Kerry could have made more of an impact with small-town voters by emphasizing his opposition to gay marriage. "He said it once or twice, instead of 3,000 times, in rural communities. If we let people believe our party doesn't believe in faith and family, that's our fault." Clinton: our moral authority on marriage and sex. As a gay man in America, perhaps I am responsible for the unraveling of the moral fabric of this country, but I have never used a cigar in bed, and I absolutely draw the line at wearing a dress from the GAP.
America listens to its presidents, present and past. The president sets the tone for tolerance in the land. When a president proposes discriminatory legislation or supports it, however unlikely it may seem that it will be voted into law, the message he sends to the rest of the country is clear: these are the people you have my permission to harm. George W. Bush's proposed constitutional ban on same-sex marriage is more than just a vindictive president's desire to deprive gay men of bridal registry; it is the legislation of hate, and its direct consequence will be the sanctioned murder of America's lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender citizens.
I marvel at the vogue of hate today in this country; who you can freely hate these days and who you can't. You can hate women, and gays, and fat people. You can hate poor people, and the homeless. You can't, however, hate black people or Jews anymore, at least not on television or in print. (You can still hate blacks privately, but Jews are harder; some have blonde hair and it isn't easy to tell if they are in the room.)
Black and white Christians have been revitalized by the same-sex ban, agreeing to suspend their hatred for each other in favor of a combined, galvanized hatred for gays. The GOP hates us all year round, but Democrats are "holiday haters," reserving their hate for special occasions - like close elections. Holiday hate never counts as real hate, of course, it's just politics, like little white (water) lies, and promises (fingers crossed) to pass legislation protecting gays in the military once voted into office.
And finally, the passive-aggressive haters know a constitutional ban on same-sex marriage based on religious belief is wrong, not to mention unconstitutional, but since we are not "personally" affected by it, we’ve decided to watch from the sidelines. Newsflash: there are no sidelines in America anymore. Civil liberties in this country are an endangered species. We may not care that the Texas red wolf is almost extinct in North America, but, living in the same ecosystem, it might be worth noting, as we may be next.
Jesusland, can you honestly say, with all that is wrong in the world today, with millions of people infected with HIV and thousands of new infections each year, with record unemployment, families with no healthcare and billions spent on war, that the greatest moral challenge we face in America today is symbolized by a wedding cake figurine of two grooms?
Is homosexuality contagious or reaching epidemic proportions? How else can the sexuality of one section of the American population singly decide the outcome of an entire presidential election? Only one conclusion can be drawn: Gay people in the heartland are doing some serious f@#king. I only wish someone had let me in on it. I thought we were supporting Kerry by voting for him. If gay sex is really that powerful, screw the oil in Iraq, Halliburton should be hooking us up to generators.
Is homosexuality so irresistible that straight men and women are leaving their homes, mesmerized and in droves, to join the gay ranks? The few straight friends I tried to seduce in my post-coming-out insecurity remained politely, but resolutely, straight. To all those who tried to manipulate me into being heterosexual to further their agendas (my mother), I remained resolutely, sometimes impolitely, gay. One might conclude from this that people are what they say they are and we can all get on with things.
Not in Jesusland. Three little words, one tiny sentence, and the best friend's face closes forever, the child is lifted from the lap of the favorite aunt, a mother sends her son his baby pictures with a note saying she no longer has a child, a girl runs away from home to escape her parents' attempts to "beat the devil out of her", a boy is forced see a psychiatrist and take medication to fix his "problem", a transgender teen hangs herself to avoid being ridiculed at a school assembly the next day.
America: you do not have the right to throw your lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender citizens in the garbage. You have a responsibility to protect us whether you like us or not. If you do not approve of gay marriage, do not attend gay weddings. It is not your prerogative to decide who is worthy of your care, or to deny protection to anyone. As American citizens our protection is guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.
We are in a holy war, a fundamentalist Christian jihad, where the possibility exists as never before that Jesusland will finally become Jesusworld. (I wonder what the rides will look like.) With a faith-based president who doesn't respect the Constitution as separate from his belief in God, there is no difference between extending democracy and extending Christianity. Once you free a citizen for elections, you have to free a soul for salvation.
Accosted by Christians on subway cars when I first came to New York City, I never ceased being amazed at the chutzpah of a stranger suddenly asking me about my relationship with God; not to mention being deeply insulted by the lack of subtlety that announced the intrusion. "That chocolate ice cream looks delicious; do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ?" I knew that no one would ever have the audacity to say to me, "Excuse me, Sir, how much money is in your bank account?" or "Pardon me for asking, how many times did you make love this week?" Yet somehow just anyone can demand to know on the spot what your relationship is with Jesus, which, if you have one, is arguably the most intimate relationship of them all. I admit it crossed my mind on more than one occasion to reply, "Why yes I do, actually, a pretty good one, and @!#$ you for asking such a personal question."
The most exasperating religious experience ever may be the attempt to convince a born-again Christian that God will allow someone into heaven that isn't "saved" through Jesus Christ. After a brief exchange, I inform the stranger that while I was “saved”, or at least baptized as a child, and my grandfather was a minister of his own church, I have no intention of being part of a religion that doesn't accept me because of my sexuality. My inquisition on the A-train ends and my Jesus interrogator trots off to his next victim, reminding me that "we’re all sinners." He hasn't achieved a new convert, but he's watered that seed of insecurity in me that maybe homosexuality is evil, that gay people do end up in hell and because of what I am, God doesn't like me anymore. It's a child's fear, like dark closets and monsters under the bed, but it can rule a life and last a lifetime.
During the six months after college that I ran around cracking people over the head with my Bible, I remember the extraordinary relief that came from finally having the Answer to Everything. No longer circling endlessly on the parking ramp of life, I had finally found a space. Trying to forge a gay identity on my own was too rangy and uncertain, and if I didn't succeed, what could be more disheartening than failing at being a pervert? The world was much easier to understand with my new faith and broken down into two distinct groups; those who were wrong, and us. I did exactly what they told me to do: love God, accept Jesus, and, like courting Santa Claus, try not to be naughty and always be nice.
Because my homosexuality, however, is dictated not by fashion or trend, but biology and DNA, I couldn't warp or mutilate myself into the desired new result. My naughtiness eventually outweighed my niceness and I was in deep shit. I wasn't told to leave, exactly, but knew that if I wanted to, I could stick around for a sort of exalted pervert status; the old "God loves you, homosexual, because He loves us all - even child molesters, rapists, and serial killers" line that some Christians think is generous.
Certain minds are vulnerable to fundamentalist thinking. Closet gays, immigrants, poor blacks, rich white women with philandering husbands--it draws so many. It's not easy to talk about why fundamentalism is attractive, why a heart might crave it. There comes a time in a life when the world simply becomes too painful for nuance, when it's freezing out and you just want to come inside and have someone say, Relax, we'll take care of you; in fact, we've been waiting for you. Here is the rulebook, no need to ask any questions: just sign here.
There isn't an oppressed person alive who at one point or another hasn't felt the seductive gravity of capitulation. The decision to resist always means thrusting oneself into the vast, unknown and dangerous wilderness of truly being free. One is tormented, at the same time, by the grim suspicion that while a secure existence may never be found in self-determination, a designated place always awaits one who will succumb to the State.
The violence against gay people, religious, emotional, physical or political, has done what social violence is supposed to; it's driven us underground, afraid to demand our rights or protect them when they are threatened. One good, well-publicized, gay murder can do wonders. Those of us who aren't brutalized or obliterated in elaborate campaigns by strangers or our families, are perpetually trapped in nets of chronic shame; our internalized hatred simplifying the work of the bashers by beating them to it.
I was astonished the day I discovered that I was a gay-killer. Indignant over the nationally publicized murders of Matthew Shepard and Brandon Teena, I'd demand a stop to gay bashing, leaving the rally or dinner party for a bashing session of my own with unsafe sex, alcohol and drugs. I had to finally consider the idea that my self-destruction wasn't fabulous or gloriously tragic; it was predictable, and (this hurt the most) not very imaginative. I was complicit with the anti-gay agendas that were aimed at me with the precision of a sniper’s bullet; an accomplice to my own gay assassination. I made a decision that although I wouldn't be able to save every gay life, I could definitely save the one I'd been given. (I'm still saving it; the mistaken assumption being that you only have to save your life once.)
I was a thirteen-year-old boy in East Lansing, Michigan on his way to school in 1983, attracted to a boy in my class, and flooded with the shame and terror that I was gay. My father also kept a Smith & Wesson in his closet. I don't believe I would have used it on myself, but a gun in any house has an aura of potential, waiting for the fatal chemistry of an escalating argument or a very, very bad day. What I did have was a lesbian friend in high school, who, one could say, "died for my sins." She came out of the closet first and when I saw that the coast was clear, I came out after her.
She was humiliated daily by notes shoved in her locker or jokes made as she walked down the hallway. Girls came up to her in groups during lunch and asked, "Are you gay?" to which she replied, "Why, are you interested?" Leaving a gas station one night, a boy, spurned by her refusals, called her a dyke and punched her in the face. She didn't allow the violence to derail her. I don't think Jesusland would have approved of her - a sassy, courageous, I'm-scared-to-death-but-you'll-never-know- it, 17-year-old black lesbian - but Jesus himself might have.
If Jesus is with us, I think he stands beside the black man who faces the lynch mob, the midwife who is brought before the church for being a witch, the bewildered and naked prisoner cowering against his cell wall in Abu Ghraib, the transgender teenager who has decided to dress as herself, no matter what her parents or the kids at school do or say. Jesus stands with all of us, but He especially knows what it's like to be innocent, to be violated and murdered for telling the truth, to face a violent mob and be alone.
America. If only you would purify your hate. When we walk into someone's country and wish to take what they have, let's just take it. Why call it liberating the Iraqi people or Operation Iraqi Freedom? Call it stealing and steal it. If you want to kill someone, don't refer to pre-emptive strikes or wars on terror. Kill them.
And if you want to hate homosexuals, Jesusland, just hate us. But don’t call it a "moral" or "family" issue, or try to legislate it and say, “I still support civil unions." And for Christ's sake, please stop dragging Jesus into it. Hasn't that poor man been through enough? Whether we believe He was the Savior or not, I think we probably all agree that He was a pretty nice guy that loved all kinds of people and never meant harm to anyone.
If He were alive to see this land today, I don't think He'd claim it.
© Max Gordon
[url="http://maxgordonworks.blogspot.com"]http://maxgordonworks.blogspot.com
star1power-at-aol-dot-com
Hey Yama have you gotten threats too like
"I will come to your house and set the house on fire and everything and everyone you know and love will be gone for good."
That one was really scary because he had such a calm voice and the ones with the calm voice usually are the ones who will carry it out. Now I always carry both kinds of mace (yes the spray and the medievel weapon
) but I always keep the windows open just in case which has led to depression (Zoloft, I salute you), paranoia (still gotta work that one out), and severe stress disorder (Neurontin I salute you) yeah the "Bible Belt" is a tough place for a homosexual, atheist, democrat 
, and/or Frenchman (hey those last three are me!)
[Edit: silly me did I forget metrosexual? And also people have called me a "French Buttheaded Communist" and of course France has been a republic since the 1800's and also this "insult" took place in high school yes high school and I was laughing so hard that I had to take my migrane medicine because laughing really hard either gives me a migrane or sends me into a psychotic rage and I have to see the nice people in the asylum]
I cant belive some people do this.... I may be a bit of a homophobe at heart just because being around a gay guy makes me uncomfortable... not really sure about that but i wouldnt do anything like that >< i dont see the point of killing a person for a reason of who they like... i have many friends online who are bi and if anyone hurt or attacked them for that i would walk across the USA if nessecary and bust that person in the lip for doing something like that... There are many people in the world who suffer for a similer thing.. or used to... first it was animals... then it was when humans first met other humans... then it was women... and now mexicans and gays/bis.... the list will go on and on... i can say that if persay some kind of device changed people and lets say gave them a tail naturally there would be the same problem with them.... a lot of people suffer from frustation and stress issues... myself included... and some of them find it easiest to take it out on other people... myself not included...
There are many other things that can be done to help but no matter what there are always going to be some unfair edge agisnt something... people seem to be violent in nature and instinct and in todays socity there isint much of a way to take care of that... so they end up doing something like this using a person being diffrent as a excuse... (think of it as a male who grows up and never masterbates then rapes a girl)
sorry if i was a bit long winded... i just happens some times ill change or take out anything if need be.
[QUOTE=Quote (oberon @ Mar. 29 2005,13:26)]
Unfortunately, I DO live in a place where my rights are infringed upon on a daily basis... the United States... more specifically Georgia. Yes, right in the heart of the Bible-belt. [/QUOTE]
i know a bit about this... i may not be gay but i am not christan... and i do get attacked daily or semi daily for it U_U im at the point where im really pushing my mom to move me to a diffrent school so i can get trough my high school years quickly and finish up then move up north....
Yes, MasterBater. Yours is an attitude that I usually encounter more among Europeans. Although, even there, there is the occasional homophobe.
I've even heard from homophobic atheists which I don't understand at all.
ok I know I am late to this but...*clears throat*...I have had similar experiences for being a metrosexual Frenchman and...this is one of the only stories on this that made me...cry...I haven't cried in years but this...this inability to accept differences in others is atrocious...this was an excellent post, oberon...and...it is appaling (spelling?) how we treat others...as an Atheist, I have no problems with gay/lesbian/bisexual marriges...or anything related...to hell with these primitive beliefs...for us to advance as a society we must learn to accept others and thier differences...the society of the United States is deteriorating before our eyes and we can only do one thing to stop its utter destruction is to learn one thing...acceptance...
Hi Sappire,
[QUOTE=Quote ]Because you can't prove homosexuality as biological and you can't prove that it isn't - so in regards to that, how are Christians supposed to respond to it? Additionally, if Leviticus 18:22 is referring to homosexuality, then naturally - we can (and should) interpret it as a sin because it is God's spoken word (to Moses, if you're curious).[/QUOTE]
There are two verses that come to mind here:
1)The Golden Rule- Treat people in ways you want them to treat you. Mat. 7:12
2)Don't judge others- Don't pass judgement, so you won't be judged. Don't forget, the judgement you hand out will be the judgement you get back. And the standard you apply will be the standard applied to you. Mat. 7:1-2
There is a variant of the Golden Rule in every major religion.
[QUOTE=Quote ]Also, we know that God will not give us any test or obstacle that we cannot endure or overcome, so this would lead us to believe that homosexuality is in fact by choice.[/QUOTE]
What about a person who is born with a severe mental disability, which he/she never overcomes, and spends his/her entire life in an institution. Can we say that if he/she had tried harder, it could have been overcome?
You didn't answer my queation from before:
Why do you believe God exists?
If anyone is interested, there is a book with all 20 of the known gospels of the New Testament, called "The Complete Gospels" edited by Robert J. Miller
Take care.
[QUOTE=Quote (sappire16xx @ Sep. 11 2005,06:00)]Actually, God does mention homosexuality in Leviticus 18:22 - Do not lie with a man as one lies with a women; that is destestable. [/QUOTE]
Again, I say... GOD doesn't mention homosexuality. The writer of Leviticus does (most people think Moses). God speaks a few times in the Bible, but never does he mention homosexuality. He writes the Ten Commandments, he speaks to Moses from the burning bush, etc.
You guys may not be able to prove that being gay is not a choice, but from the standpoint of someone who lives with it, I can assure you that it is not.
Take care.
Hi again Oberon and everyone else!
About the collection of the different books, yes I was aware of that. I may be wrong, but I think it was a Calvinist "convention" somewhere in the Netherlands where all this filtering of the books took place. I once did some research on the Book of Mary (Magdalene) which was not chosen as a final contestant for the Bible, perhaps (meaning probably) because she was a woman. Tsk tsk. And that had absolutely nothing to do with anything, so I'll move on o.O
Actually, God does mention homosexuality in Leviticus 18:22 - Do not lie with a man as one lies with a women; that is destestable. Of course, this is not necessarily pointing towards homosexuality, as many verses in the Bible have a wide range of interpretations. If anyone here has a different interpretation of that verse, please do share because I'd love to get some new perspective on it. However, I must also mention that this verse is said in the Old Testament, and we all know that after Christ died, he cleansed many of the old sins/regulations from the new testament so that they were no longer necessary (such as sacrificial rituals, eating certain meats, etc...) So could this mean that many of the sexual regulations were disposed of as well? God/Christ does not mention any regulations concerning homosexuality in the New Testament, so that could mean that either they still hold or they were disregarded. Again... many interpretations.
CANOESTRIPPER, all the issues you mentioned were exactly the points I was making. Because you can't prove homosexuality as biological and you can't prove that it isn't - so in regards to that, how are Christians supposed to respond to it? Additionally, if Leviticus 18:22 is referring to homosexuality, then naturally - we can (and should) interpret it as a sin because it is God's spoken word (to Moses, if you're curious). Also, we know that God will not give us any test or obstacle that we cannot endure or overcome, so this would lead us to believe that homosexuality is in fact by choice.
But then, many gay people say it is not by choice. Woops, pothole. Where do we go from there?
~sapphire
Hi ya'll,
Well, technically, neither God nor Jesus ever mention homosexuality. You'd think that if it were important, then one of them would have.
I, also, take into consideration that the Bible we use today was translated by a very intolerant society... of men. Just out of curiosity, were you aware that before King J. came along there were MANY more books of "the Bible" (of course, it wasn't called that then). Each book of the Bible started as an independent text. King J. and crew are the ones who decided what went in and what didn't. Makes one wonder what they based their decisions on....
[QUOTE=Quote (sappire16xx @ Sep. 07 2005,22:50)]Hello again everyone!
Homosexuality is a concept I've been struggling with for a long time, because it's just so hard to understand. Any attempt at comprehending it has lead me around in circles. As a conservative Christian, I've been taught since a young age - and I believe still now even though i am older - that homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God. So naturally, I would prefer to leave it at that and go about my life. However, there are so many testimonies of friends and online folks who claim that they had no control in their sexual orientations, so really, it wouldnt be a sin. However, the Bible also teaches that God never gives us obstables that would be impossible to overcome - such as a biological factor inducing unavoidable homosexuality. But then, what of all those people who have committed suicide or are trapped in the bottles of anti-depressent pills because they can't restrain themsleves from feeling attracted to those of the same sex even though they don't want to? If homosexuality were really a choice, then why would so many people make it knowing how much it would hurt them? Of course then, one can always say that homosexuality is simply a misinterpretation of one's own feelings - mistaking, say, feelings of admiration for sexual attraction. But that can never be proved either. So we're right back where we started.
~sapphire[/QUOTE]
Congratulations, you have discovered philosophy.
Here's something to think about:
Can you (not being gay) prove beyond a doubt that some people aren't born gay?
Can you (not being God) prove beyond a doubt that God exists?
My gay friends all say they were born that way. Am I qualified to tell them they are wrong? How would you feel if someone told you that you were not born straight when you know that you were. You can't know what another person feels. If you were gay, you would know you were gay.
I am a Christian, and I know God exists. Is there any proof? No. That's what faith is, believing something without proof. If there was proof, everyone could believe without needing faith. Where's the challenge in that? If you were God, you would know you existed.
Why do you believe God exists?
Makes your head hurt doesn't it?
Take care.
Hello again everyone!
Homosexuality is a concept I've been struggling with for a long time, because it's just so hard to understand. Any attempt at comprehending it has lead me around in circles. As a conservative Christian, I've been taught since a young age - and I believe still now even though i am older - that homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God. So naturally, I would prefer to leave it at that and go about my life. However, there are so many testimonies of friends and online folks who claim that they had no control in their sexual orientations, so really, it wouldnt be a sin. However, the Bible also teaches that God never gives us obstables that would be impossible to overcome - such as a biological factor inducing unavoidable homosexuality. But then, what of all those people who have committed suicide or are trapped in the bottles of anti-depressent pills because they can't restrain themsleves from feeling attracted to those of the same sex even though they don't want to? If homosexuality were really a choice, then why would so many people make it knowing how much it would hurt them? Of course then, one can always say that homosexuality is simply a misinterpretation of one's own feelings - mistaking, say, feelings of admiration for sexual attraction. But that can never be proved either. So we're right back where we started.
~sapphire
Hi Sappire,
Thanks for your response. I've said before, IF someone is going to have anti-gay sentiments, then the kind that you have, I can at least live with. I won't try to change your mind... although I can catagorically state that gay people really don't have any choice about being gay. Therefore, I find it hard to imagine that it's a sin.
I, too, believe (being a Christian, myself) that Fred Pheleps (the "God hates.." guy) is NO kind of Christian. I find it terrible that this man has so much hate in himself that he felt the need to found an organization to spread that hate around.
Gay marriage... As a Christian, I'm sure you believe that God blesses a marriage union. However, do you feel that God blesses a union made by people other than Christians? Hindus, Buddhists, or Atheists? Yet, THEY are still allowed to be called marriage. How is gay marriage any different from that standpoint? Marriage is made holy by the beliefs of those entering the marriage, not from any outside source.
And on the secular side of thing, marriage in the US automatically grants 1,100+ rights to spouses. Things like inheritance, child custody, insurance, and hospital visitation. The recent Katrina tragedy will be doubly difficult for gay couples in the New Orleans area (even those that may have legal documents) because states can and WILL choose not to recognize their union. People will completely lose their homes, finances, and children. Others won't be allowed to visit their spouses in hospitals or make medical (possibly life-saving) decisions for them.
Discrimination kills people.
Thanks again for your response. Take care.
Oberon, your original post was very powerful and I hope a lot of people read it. One thing I would like to emphasize once more (since someone already mentioned it here) is that the extreme conservative Christian groups who cast judgment upon those with different sexual orientations live by tradition, and not by love. I think it was a year ago when some friends and I (all of us are Christian) were watching a news story on a gay parade on TV. Suddenly, a Christian was featured on the screen holding a big sign reading "GOD HATES FAGS." I think - and I apologize if I'm being judgmental - that was one of the most disgusting things I have ever witnessed from a self-proclaimed Christian.
Christianity is rooted in love and faith in Jesus Christ. To be honest, I don't agree with homosexuality. However, hating the sin - as I hate all sins - does not mean I hate the sinner, as many "Christians" do. I don't think homosexuality will land a person in hell, just as lying for a lifetime will not land a person in hell if he or she chooses to repent and give his or her life to Christ.
At this point, I'm not sure what to think about civil unions and marriage. One side of me condemns gay marriage because I believe the essence of marriage lies in the union between a man and woman. The other side of me accepts the idea as long as I personally do not engage in what I do not believe in. It's hard, when so many people tell you to believe so many different things. Currently, I'm still trying to figure out what I should be leaning towards, and it's no easy task.
LMAO!!! That's right....we have no idea what we're doing and if what we are doing is right. How can love be wrong?
Margaret Cho (comedian) had something great to say on this subject in her monologue for the opening of the GLAAD awards this year:
"I just want Jesus to come back and say, 'That's NOT what I meant!!'"
God will have his say in the end. The world is full of foot in mouth people.
I would rather spend my life knowing I loved all than to know I hated many!
I just want to add that your post was great Fallen_Icarus and one I happen to agree with as Christian myself. I have my opinions and beliefs that work for me and me alone. I don't want someone judging me and what I do. That is God's job not man's. I in turn don't go judging other's for what they do.
It really pisses me off when Christian's run around spewing their judgements on others and never once try to understand or reach out in love to their fellow man.
And you can bet on Judgement Day there are going to be many upset self righteous Christians standing before Jesus in shame for their behavior.
Hi Fallen Icarus and welcome!
Well, you certainly don't sound like a "Christian Conservative" to me. You sound like a true Christian with a tolerant attitude and an open mind. There should be more people like you.
I, too, grew up in a rural area in a conservative Christian home. I've always found it somewhat surprising that I didn't have a meltdown when I realized I was gay. I think what probably saved me was the fact that my parents were proud of my intellect and encouraged me to read. In this way, I knew that I wasn't the "only gay in the village" (that's a British comedy line from "Little Britain" for those of you who may not know...lol) and that there wasn't anything "wrong" or "evil" about it- contrary to what I might hear from those around me.
Your line.... "I believe that homosexuality for ME is not the right way to live"... Well, if you are a heterosexual then you are absolutely correct. I can say with equal authority that heterosexuality for ME is not the right way to live.
You talk about choices. I realize that there isn't any definitive proof one way or another so all I have to go own is my own experience. I DID NOT choose this. I probably had the same experiences as most teens going through puberty. The only difference is my focus (from the beginning) was on the same sex. Do you really think an eleven or twelve year old makes that kind of choice? I wasn't brainwashed or recruited into being gay either. I never spoke to anyone that I knew was gay until I was 19 yrs. old and that didn't have anything to do with sex (he was someone I worked with). I didn't have any contact with gay people for the idea of dating until I was 22 and I had to seek them out... not the other way around.
I, too, remain a Christian. For me, there is some uncertainty exactly what the Bible has to say about gay people. In the KJV, it's only mentioned a scant half dozen times and with those there are issues of translation. I DO know that Jesus NEVER mentioned it, nor has God, directly. Regardless of what the Bible has to say on the subject, I believe that there is only one requirement for Christians to gain forgiveness and Heaven: Acknowledging and accepting Jesus as God's son. With that as the one and only hurdle, I find it incredibly hard to believe that "All f@gs (I really HATE that word) are going to Hell."
In closing- I've rambled enough for now...lol- I'd just like to say that your post certainly did not offend me. I welcome discussion with anyone- even those that hold completely opposite views. The only thing that offends me is deliberate rudeness and the use of demeaning terminology. I hope you'll feel free to talk about anything you like here.
Take care.
[QUOTE][And if you want to hate homosexuals, Jesusland, just hate us. But don’t call it a "moral" or "family" issue, or try to legislate it and say, “I still support civil unions." And for Christ's sake, please stop dragging Jesus into it. Hasn't that poor man been through enough? Whether we believe He was the Savior or not, I think we probably all agree that He was a pretty nice guy that loved all kinds of people and never meant harm to anyone.
If He were alive to see this land today, I don't think He'd claim it./QUOTE]
Ergh, this isn't an easy topic to post on, from my perspective. I'm relatively new here, been reading things for a little while now, but only very very recently decided to start posting, and I guess this is as good a place as any to start.
The ideas of homophobia, of the differences in people's natures and choices, and the subsequential difference in opinion about those actions, are all so much more complex, in both my opinion and from my research, than we would like to believe. It would be so simple if there was one side clearly in the right and one in the wrong. And it seems like there really only seems to be two sides: either that homosexuality is wrong and 'all the fags are going to hell' (sigh), or that anyone who thinks twice about wanting to accept homosexuality into their own home, their own lives, are 'redneck bible thumping homphobes out for a lynching.'
For years I struggled with my identity, looking to find myself under one of these two banners. A straight white male, who grew up in a very conservative rural setting, with a strong faith in the bible, who has done research into the bible, who really reads it and tries to understand and guide his life with that, a rarity, even amongst the millions of church goers (go figure). Yet also a man who moved into a metropolitan area, two of his best friends are gay, and has dated several bi women in his past. A background of intolerance and hatred, but a reality that would not let me close my eyes or listen to hearsay and stereotypes, even if I had wanted to. It's just so complicated.
I don't believe homosexuality is the right way to live. There's no sugery way to put it, so I suppose plain honesty must suffice. But I believe that homosexuality is not the right way for ME to live. Whilst I have my opinions, my beliefs, no matter how strongly I hold them, they extend no farther than my life and my choices. I find no wrong in any one else choosing their path, in choosing to live their life pursuing happiness however they should find it, provided it does not negatively affect me. Having close friends who are gay, even (ye gods) being dragged to a gay strip club for a friend's birthday, these things have not affected me or my beliefs. They have neither reinforced stereotypes nor made me renounce my views.
I'm the kind of person that keeps a lighter around for friends who smoke, even though I would never touch a cigarette, and think it's a bit of a nasty habit. I just don't see how other people's lives and choices should be a factor in my own, and I support gay people having all the same rights as straight people. It's America, people, Freedom's what we supposedly pride ourselves on, right?
I read this excerpt, this article. I talk to friends, I experience and learn from other's experiences, and I have still yet to find my place, find which side would dare accept me, or if there really are or ought to be such sides in the first place. I have talked with my friends about my views, and they understand, and find no hard feelings against me for having the beliefs that I do. In fact, they at least are understanding and are glad to have my friendship, just as I have benefitted infinitely from theirs.
Am I a vicious homophobe, for not liking the way of life, the choice or inherent nature, whatever it may be? Am I 'in leage with the fags,' as I am sure old acquaintances from my home town would no doubt report? Am I uneducated, simply uncultured or backwards? I used to believe so, but everything I look at, and objective as I try to be, the belief I hold remains the same and as valid, in my opinion, as when first I adopted it. I just don't think it's so black and white an issue.
Just wondering if anyone had any particular input, or if anyone has a similar understanding or feeling. I don't know if this coff as offensive to anyone, I certainly hope it didn't, just thought I could try to bring the best and most positive voice for the Conservative Christian as I could muster.
Hi Sexysheep,
Yes, homophobia has many of the same qualities as xenophobia. (No, that's not a fear of women with swords...lol.)
What sets gay people apart from those dealing with discrimination based on race is that we (well, most of us) CAN hide. I think this has its good and bad points. While being able to blend in has probably (definitely!!) saved lives, it also means we aren't forced to deal with the discrimination. Finally, it seems that we've developed enough group identity to work together and make a start at changing things.
Anyway, thanks for your words of support. It's always nice to hear from someone who is open-minded and tolerant.
Hey man that article is great.
I'm totally 100% behind you. This is just like the past with the racist thing, now days people look back at how silly it was to waste all that time,money, and lives beating up each other for our difference in outer appearance. You'd think people would learn from past mistakes but no. We continue with our pointless selfish ideas that because your different you need to suffer for being yourself. Don't our peers and elders motivate us to express individuality?? Then is it that those who do pay a negative consequence?? It's like telling a kid to run across a highway blind folded. Those who're scared will wait but eventally have to deal with it. Others will fearlessly go forth and if they're lucky little or no danger will be around. And there are those who are running in circles confused and certifying theur death. It's just stupid making a kid run across a highway blindfolded we can use all this time on doing something imprtant. Yeah I'm not good with paragraphs but you get what I'm trying to say
Hi Canoestripper and welcome aboard!
I'm certainly glad that you decided to join in on the discussion. It is wonderful to hear that some religious organizations are starting to see where they might be wrong. Your story is particularly encouraging since the only other story I have concerning the Presbyterians involves an ex of mine. His father was (he's passed away) a Presbyterian minister. When my friend moved to Atlanta, he- of course- went to the Presbyterian church near his home. After attending for a while, he discussed membership with the associate pastor. He was informed that he really shouldn't apply for membership since he was homosexual. That was 25 years ago.
It's great that some churches are moving forward. There are now churches from many denominations that happily accept gay members. The fight still goes on, but there are glimmers of hope.
Thanks again for sharing your story.
Hi Oberon, i've been lurking for a while trying to decide whether to join in. After reading this post I was really moved. Powerful stuff. It was half of the reason I decided to join, the other half is something from Church (Presbyterian) yesterday. Every week we have a "Catechism Question" and answer to help everyone understand to basic doctrines of our faith. Of late they have been on the ten commandments. This weeks resonated with your post and follows.
"Does the ninth commandment forbid racism and other forms of negative stereotyping?"
"Yes. In forbidding false witness against my neighbor, God forbids me to be prejudiced against people who belong to any vulnerable, different, or disfavored social group. Jews, women, homosexuals, racial and ethnic minorities, and national enemies are among those who have suffered terribly from being subjected to the slurs of social prejudice. Negative stereotyping is a form of falsehood that invites actions of humiliation, abuse, and violence as forbidden by the commandment against murder."
Just wanted to share this with everyone. It makes me feel good that my church follows the same beliefs as I do. If only other denominations could see it this way. Unfortunately I have come to the realization that argueing with people of differing opinions over philisophical issues is almost never productive. I have my beliefs (which I know are right) and the person I am trying to convince has his/hers (which they also know is right), so no one is convinced.
OK, enough from me. Keep up the fight.
Nope, I didn't mind the edit...
I'm very much aware that this sort of thing goes on in EVERY part of the country. Some places are better than others, but you can always find those who want to impose their [own] (
) views on other people.
I often wonder how many people are even aware that it is still completely legal in 39 states to fire someone just because they are gay. No other reason is needed. It is also completely legal to deny housing to a person based on their sexual orientation.
And people wonder why I'm always going on about gay rights? What rights??
Hi Pixie and welcome!
That would be good... at least that's my hope.
Wow. That's really depressing. Very interesting. I think more people should read that, it might just stop them from being so close-minded.
Hi Houston and welcome!
I'm always moved and impressed when a straight man lends his support to the issue of gay rights. NOT that I am any less impressed with anybody else... it's just that straight men seem to have a harder time with this issue. As you point out so well, many times they are ridiculed and/or labeled "closet-cases". Personally, I can't think of anything further from the truth. Usually, such men are very secure in their own sexuality and just don't feel threatened by other people's perceptions.
I, too, have a hard time accepting the idea that people who oppose gay rights or marriage are "protecting" anything. I think it threatens their security and they feel that it's harder to live by their "values" if they aren't forcing everyone else to do the same.
Unfortunately, I DO live in a place where my rights are infringed upon on a daily basis... the United States... more specifically Georgia. Yes, right in the heart of the Bible-belt. Where people love Jesus so much, they have no problem crucifying someone in His name. I think He would be saddened.
oberon...great article to share.
I have no gay tendancies, but the second a straight man supports the right of homosexuals to do what they want, he is either labelled a "gay-lover" or "in the closet" by many people.
I for one am sick of people hiding behind God, any religion, or "upholding the moral integrity" of society to justify discrimination and hate. Hitler did that too, and A LOT of Americans have a similar mindset. Why don't these cowards just come at us head on and stop hiding behind brainwashed religious upbringing?
I'm happy to say that Canada is slowly but surely allowing homosexuals the right to marry. Our politicians are rumbling about it too, and many have clinged to the religion card, citing that marriage is "a union between a man and woman, and that is how it should remain". Makes me want to kick these stuffy old suits in the nuts.
The thing is, gay-haters never put themselves in the shoes of homosexuals...for any hetero opposed to allowing gays the right to marry whomever they choose, imagine if the government of the country you are living in told you that you weren't allowed to marry the person you love because its against God and damages the "moral integrity" of the state. People who hate are not "protecting" the moral integrity of the United States --- the "moral integrity" of America is in shambles BECAUSE of thinking like this.
oberon, I wish you well, and I hope that where you live, no one ever infringes on your right to live your life however you choose.
Thanks, Shadowcat.
This is probably one of the best written articles that I've ever read. It's nice to know that other people can relate to it.
LOL @ "two gay guys together..." I think so!
I've not been on here from that long and im really taking an interest in ur posts Oberon and I think this one has touched me the most. That was all powerful stuff you said and it really makes you think. Its like if ur gay ur ot human acording to these people. and its all because of the bible. im not dissing religion or anything here, but the bible teaches that gay = wrong and so many people still believe this today which is ridiculous because the bible also teaches about adam and eve and we all know thats not the way the world began. Why cant people accept that there are different people in the world, i mean no ones the same as anyone else anyway so why should weather someones gay or not matter. its just a part of them. for christsake next it'll be brunette's "attack him/her! he/shes got ginger hair!" (no offence to brunette's...i mean i am one myself! and no offence to ginger's either)
ps can i just say that seeing 2 gay guys together is HOT!
[QUOTE=Quote (oberon @ Dec. 07 2004,22:06)]Thanks, ya'll, for the support.
I can honestly say that this article made me cry the first time I read it... even though I had heard of many of these cases before. I can relate to so much of it. Maybe it explains why I'm so aggressive... okay, I'll be honest, angry... sometimes. It really doesn't come from hating anyone else. It comes from hurt.
I really don't know what else to say. This man captures my feelings almost exactly.[/QUOTE]
wow oberon that was awesome!
it was extremely powerful and i hope it made an impression.
i do not believe that people should hate themselves on the way that they feel and that they should let themselves think that some powerful being will punish them for just having feelings, we r all human, we all have different views and sexualities and preferences, no one can change that no matter how hard u try to tell people that they will get punished or how hard u try to force people to hide their true feelings.
oberon that was awesome once again! mariah
Thanks, ya'll, for the support.
I can honestly say that this article made me cry the first time I read it... even though I had heard of many of these cases before. I can relate to so much of it. Maybe it explains why I'm so aggressive... okay, I'll be honest, angry... sometimes. It really doesn't come from hating anyone else. It comes from hurt.
I really don't know what else to say. This man captures my feelings almost exactly.
Wow. I was honestly hesistant to reply to this post at first. I was shocked when I read it. Not because I didnt know that this stuff goes on, but because its surprising to read it all like that, all together at once. I wish those people who are against homosexuality and against gay marriage and everything should seriously take a look at this. They dont seem to realize how many PEOPLE are negatively affected. They dont seem to realize how many people DIE from the hate. They simply find out that someone is gay, and automatically reduce them to something lower than human. This kind of hate not only affects gays, as we all know. But in my opinion, lots of things have happened to lessen the hate on other groups of people. After all, segregation is a thing of the past, there are no laws against interracial marriage. We seem to be so far behind in the fight against hatred directed towards gays. I think its pathetic, people need to open their eyes and see what is really going on here. I know that there is still a big struggle ahead for gays, and it wont be easy to acheive those simple rights and respect that every person deserves, if it ever happens. I really hope some changes happen soon, that people open their eyes and stop this horror. And yes, I am going to pass this along as well. Thank you Oberon.
wow.. Oberon, thank you, i thought that was pretty powerful, just shows you how sick people really are.. and can't deal with someone whos different from them.. or has a different perception. or idea... how sad. but i really thkank you for that.. im gonna spread that around.. cause its so true.. thats how i see alot of it
I have never been, nor will I ever be one of those people! It's just not fair!
And yet so many people judge that they have the right to deny gay people legal marriage status.
Yup the right for judging belongs to God Almighty and He will be doing that as He sees fit.
I think you are absolutely right. Who are we to judge??? We don't have the right to!
Hmmm very interesting take on America and Jesus.
[QUOTE=Quote (oberon @ Mar. 29 2005,13:26)]I'm always moved and impressed when a straight man lends his support to the issue of gay rights. Usually, such men are very secure in their own sexuality and just don't feel threatened by other people's perceptions.
I, too, have a hard time accepting the idea that people who oppose gay rights or marriage are "protecting" anything. I think it threatens their security and they feel that it's harder to live by their [own] "values" if they aren't forcing everyone else to do the same.
Unfortunately, I DO live in a place where my rights are infringed upon on a daily basis... the United States... more specifically Georgia. Yes, right in the heart of the Bible-belt. Where people love Jesus so much, they have no problem crucifying someone in His name. I think He would be saddened.[/QUOTE]
Hope you didn't mind my edit, but, one thing you need to know, it's the same here in the upper midwest where I'm at. I'm originally from this part, but find people who come here from the south, specifically the BB, imposing their own standards on others. Personal experience tells me that.
Pete
Yeah, I'm a straight guy who was a Marine from 1990 - 1998, and I believe in God. I just cannot understand how all these people fail to realize that homosexuals are just regular people! I'm possibly one of the only tough guys you will meet that doesn't give a flip about what you have between your legs or what you choose to do with it. I have all kinds of friends, straight, bi, and gay, and there is no difference in them! Anyone who has a problem with bisexuals and homosexuals needs to build themselves a time machine quick, so they can go back to the dark ages where they will be more comfortable! But that's not gonna happen, because the people who are "homo-phobes" aren't smart enough to even concieve such a thing. Indeed, it's a stretch for them to understand that not everyone is like them. And God forbid if they're regular churchgoers! These people are so caught up in all their various doctrines and rituals, that they've completely forgotten that God tought us to love one another, and leave the judgements to Him. I believe God exists, and I also believe that NO religion on the face of the earth has it right! If Jesus came back tomorrow, many "churchies" would be absolutely baffled to see that they are some of the first people He throws in hell! At this point, I believe i've completely wandered off the subject. It's just that whenever somebody persecutes someone else and then tries to claim some sort of BS that that's what God wants, well then I tend to go a little ape****! Don't let the idiots get you down! You've got at least one strong heterosexual ally right here! :cool:
Pleas read under the topic of homo/bi here. This discussion has been had at lengths. YOU need to keep religion out of your sexuality. I am Catholic & a Republican. I am straight. Why should you have any right to marry in the Catholic church? I don't; for I was married previously.
No one can stop you from partaking in any ceremony BUT to expect them to say "hey we have a homo group" which requires a special interest...FORGET IT!
Please get some gay/bi's in political power. You are worried about Maine years back? What about TX?
ipersonaly have no religion i dont believe ther is a god im a bit of a sceptic i suppose. but i fuly support gays etc i have them in my family and they are no different but there will always be small minded people who pre judge. nothing we can do about it is there.. wha religion does and can do to homosexuals is disgracful and shouldnt be tollerated but again not much can be done about it is ther :(
[quote=Cook2b;194375]ipersonaly have no religion i dont believe ther is a god im a bit of a sceptic i suppose. but i fuly support gays etc i have them in my family and they are no different but there will always be small minded people who pre judge. nothing we can do about it is there.. wha religion does and can do to homosexuals is disgracful and shouldnt be tollerated but again not much can be done about it is ther :([/quote]Too many like to inflict their homophobic ways upon others and use their religion as a basis for doing so. Small minded? Yes, but I think it's more of they lack the ability to think for themselves. As I say, I am straight, what impact does a gay marriage have on me as a Catholic & straight person? Simply put, it has no bearing & it's not my business...everyone has rights and denying someone who is gay/bi to marry is infringing on their rights to live happy & free. Who am I or anyone else to judge that? I support the right for all individuals to marry.
Just to add a bit more to think about. Dont just think that Extremist Christains have intolerance for gays. There is a great amount of intollerance within the Muslim faith as well. Recently a reporter asked Ahmadimajad (sp?) if there were gays in Iran. his awnser was "no" here is the reason why. They kill, beat, torture Gays within Irans boarders. It is a travesty to have anyone treated like that. I for one am a Christian. It is not in my power to judge others, I leave it up to the big guy. But people that use Christianity as the basis of all evil and intollerance is only finding one enemy, where there are many others lurking in the shadows. As a Christain, I may hate the sin. But of course I will alwase love the sinner. In my familys case, it is my aunt. Who I love very much, even though I may not agree with her lifestyle.
sorry for the bad punctuation or spelling errors, just came off a 12 hour day.
I'm bad with words, but I'm going to try to make this as understandable as possible....
In a way, I'm happy this is getting to the news. The information, the killings, the suicides, everything, there is a good side to it all.
Because of all of it, we can now teach the new generations (presently 1990-present) about being open-minded to people so they can be knowledgeable and helpful if they find out that their best friend is gay/bi/trans. Who knows what life would be like if all of this didn't get to the media?
We are finding out scientific proof that homosexuality runs in the female genes of family (if I'm correcto mondo) but that's besides the point.
My point is, all of this bad stuff is being good because we can learn and grow from it and teach the new generation about it so they can be open to the topics and not close-minded and harmful to gay/bi/trans.
I hope everyone understands me.
The most salient issue which needs to be approached is acceptance of ones lifestyle & tolerance for those who are not like us--I am not talking about rape & pedophiles. Basically drawing on sexuality & such desires (regardless of the individuals orientation) as being a normal & healthy part of life...dispelling myths and preconceived notions will work wonders. Education is the key to bettering life.
I am straight, I couldn't care less if another is gay or bi; what impact does it have on my personal life? NONE. I do not expect those who are straight & support the life style to go out and march for the gay pride parade but stop inflicting "norms" which are so short sighted on others.
The more we cause people to live in the closet & attempt a straight lifestyle; the more heartache which follows for all involved---including a future spouse who believes they are embarking on a sexually more "traditional" life! Put differently, as a woman I married and did not anticipate my husband to have a bf! His parents & profession set expectations for him to be a "man" as they lived. The end? A divorce; a very devastated woman, a very confused man, and a very hurt partner (his).
One of the people who I was reminded of while reading this was this guy I knew who was gay, but unfortunatly was severely overweight and unnattractive. He was always depressed all the time having difficulty finding a caring person to be with. My heart always went out to him (but nothing more mind you).
One day I came up with this idea; wouldn't it be in the gay-haters' best interests to let the homosexuals be free and merry? See, it's always been my belief that it's something your born with, something genetic. Now does that mean it's hereditary, I don't know. Let's assume that it is for the point I want to make. With a bigot-free country/world, men and women could come out of the closet (assuming there would be any closet remaining) without fear. With there no longer being closet-cases, there wouldn't be people living false lives and being married to the opposite sex for appearence sake.
So, assuming there is a hereditary element, wouldn't occurence of the 'gay gene' eventually dissipate from decline in reproduction?
I'm not trying to be a wise-guy, I just figure this would be an intersting argument to make with gay-haters.
What about gay couples that have kids via artificial insemination? ;)
As to your friend who you say isn't finding anyone because he's "severely overweight and unattractive" . . . . well, maybe so but there's a very active subset of the gay community that likes big guys, so if he puts himself in the right places he shouldn't have much of a problem, really. What I find many times is guys that "can't find anyone" have unreasonable standards themselves . . . . the "I wouldn't want to date anyone that looked like me" syndrome.
admited I did not read your entire post but I get the gist and wish to state my point of veiw just the same,
as far as I conceren one orientation is their own affair and they should be respected whatever their decision although I don't agree with people that were straight and decide to just go gay to be different but if your really gay you should be respected and allowed to life your life without harasment and the church should all be killed as far as I am concerned they know nothing of sexuality but merley use it to control people straight or gay.
I'm not sure about gays getting married if two men live together well some official bond should be registered like couples living together have certain rights although not married as far as putting it on a level as we're married I don't know but a civil status should be asigned.
as far as gay couples adopting children sorry but thats a bit much, nothing to do with the church and morals just look at nature, children are the produced when a male and female couple not two males or females so for 2 men or women to adopt children is wrong its not natural. if you want to says gays have a natural right to be together fine but on the same principle its not natural that there be offspring from such a relationship. simply because if children grow up to undertand that gay is natural and lets say going extreme we all go gay or lesbian how would the human race continue ?
what I'm saying bringing up children in a gay environment will probably make them gay although they are not gay genetically, if your gay because that is the way you are fine but passing this on which will probably happen is not natural if we were still apes it would not happen sounds crude but thats my practical point of view. but like I said gays should be treated as equals its not their fault its just part of evolution just like straight couples are ecept gays can't have children so straights will prevail and the human race continue, however this racist nasty and ignorant attitude is not on, and again the church should be dissabled because we are all conditioned by religeon and then the powers that be also play on this come election time totaly wrong religeon should be kept out of politics a president cannot say he thinks he is acting righteously in the eyes of god he should be acting justly and humanly.
[QUOTE=Newtolove;197132]as far as gay couples adopting children sorry but thats a bit much, nothing to do with the church and morals just look at nature, children are the produced when a male and female couple not two males or females so for 2 men or women to adopt children is wrong its not natural. if you want to says gays have a natural right to be together fine but on the same principle its not natural that there be offspring from such a relationship. simply because if children grow up to undertand that gay is natural and lets say going extreme we all go gay or lesbian how would the human race continue ?
what I'm saying bringing up children in a gay environment will probably make them gay although they are not gay genetically, if your gay because that is the way you are fine but passing this on which will probably happen is not natural if we were still apes it would not happen sounds crude but thats my practical point of view. but like I said gays should be treated as equals its not their fault its just part of evolution just like straight couples are ecept gays can't have children so straights will prevail and the human race continue, however this racist nasty and ignorant attitude is not on, and again the church should be dissabled because we are all conditioned by religeon and then the powers that be also play on this come election time totaly wrong religeon should be kept out of politics a president cannot say he thinks he is acting righteously in the eyes of god he should be acting justly and humanly.[/QUOTE]I appreciate your supportive stance about religious intolorence, but you need to read up a bit about homosexuality. You cannot MAKE someone gay, no one CHOOSES to be gay. You either are or you are not. Are you seriously telling me a child is going to grow up and say "What the hell, I think I'll be gay because my parents are"? If that was the case why are there gay people at all? Wouldn't we all be copying our straight parents? There is ZERO evidence that children brought up by gay couples stand any more chance of being gay themselves than children brought up by straight couples. I'm talking objective scientific studies, not "Focus on the Family" type garbage. ZERO. We're not trying to make an army, y'know. We're not "recruiting" people, children or adults. We DO NOT CARE if you're gay or not, and if we are raising children we bring them up to be who they are. With all the dysfunctional families out there, children brought in environments of domestic violence, sexual abuse, alcoholism or drug abuse by straight people it seems a little strange to pick someone's orientation as an example of what's "natural" and best for a child's upbringing. One thing I can guarentee you . . . . I seriously doubt there has ever been a kid disowned, possibly driven to suicide by his gay parents for his sexual orientation, whatever it might be. You know damn well the same claim can't be made in the straight community.
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