I saw a disturbing program earlier with this title. It was about people born with ambiguous genitalia and/or hermaphrodites. The whole thing ended up making me somewhat angry.
Like the case of the woman who was born with an overly large clitoris. The doctors decided that she was originally male and then later decided that she was female whereupon they amputated most of the clitoris... GRRRRR. This poor woman- as a baby- had others decide for her that she would never experience sexual pleasure! I think that's sick!
What is wrong with waiting to see how the person responds and let THEM make the decision? I realize that parents would really like to know if they have a boy or a girl, but SO WHAT??!! I think the health and well-being of the person should FAR outweigh any social considerations.
Then there was a lot of discussion about the idea that if you raised a child as one specific sex then that child would become that sex. What?? I don't really see sex as something that is socially conditioned.
Are we really so prejudiced that we MUST fit everyone into a catagory that we can identify with- whether or not it's best for the person? Sometimes, people really get to me.... 
Rawbob, I agree completely.
Hmm... in thinking about your response, something occurred to me. The one assigning a "label" should be one's self. It's when we assign labels to other people that the trouble starts.
In other words, I can decide I'm part of one group or another, but no one else has the right to decide for me which group I belong in. True?
After reading some of the other replies, i feel compelled to chime in! (go figure,eh? hahaha)
First, LABELS. We like 'em, we hate 'em - but they are a reality. All humans have a tendency to "group" things, people, philosopies, behaviours, etc....that's reality.
The real issue of lables is when they are used to hurt, exclude, or persecute.
What unfortunatly often happens is that labels are turned into stereotypes...and thats how discussions are skewed and people get hurt.
Those who cling to a "black or white" mentality love lables.....because to them it requires so much less thought. When those folks are in any position of power or influence, issues such as being gay or str8, the rightness, wrongness, etc become a REAL problem. Because they use their power/influence to actualy try to pursuade, alienate or otehrwise hurt those in that "label."
For me, i wasn't with my first man until i was 30 years old! I was married, had a child, home, job, dog, cat, etc. So when folks "label" me as a gay man and make assumptions about who i really am, what i like, don't like, my religious or political stances - i often get really mad.
That said, i prefer to address them by my actions rather than attacking them.
If we all did this, one voice at a time, we can make a change.
Oberon, you may be surprised.. but your ex-girlfriend may already know why you broke it off.
One of the very first guys I dated was gay. I mean I didn't know at the time we were dating. I had met him at work and we dated a few months. Real nice guy, good looking, well liked by everyone and had lots of friends. He was never sexual with me, would hug me or give me a quick kiss etc. I thought he was a gentleman perhaps?
Well about 5 years later, when I was married I ran into a mutual friend. I asked if she remembered me and was like "Yeah, I used to date your friend so-and-so." She got this deer in the headlights look and was like "oh!" I said "what?? Is he okay?" she says "yeah, he's fine.. it's just.." and I just said "he's gay, isn't he?" and she's like "yeah! he's so happy now, he's living with a great guy out in blah blah"... etc.
She thought I would be all like "oh my GOD!!! eeeek!" But it turned out I did kind of already suspect. He was just never really into us, don't even know why we dated, but we had fun like friends. I just kinda knew. And I'm happy he's comfortable with himself now and happy. Obviously it would never have worked with us.. we never broke up, just stopped calling each other. lol.
In my more optimistic moments, I think maybe someday it will be just accepted- no dramatics, no hysteria. But, I feel most of the time that it's a long way off.
It would be a much better world if people grew up with the idea that there were more possibilites than just being heteroseuxual. It would get rid of a lot of pain and hardship for many people... and not just gay people.
I've mentioned on here that I had a relationship with a girl in college. I already knew that I found guys attractive. I never told her why we broke up... I've always been very disgusted with myself over that. I wonder what pain I caused her because I was unable to be honest.
I think that's why I identified with the poor people in this tv show. Trying to fit themselves into the world... knowing something wasn't working... but being unable to voice what it was because of social pressure.
Why aren't people more important than social conceptions?
Yes, hopefully within the next 10 years we will learn how to accept the gay lifestyle universally and be prepared on how to deal with the issues that will arise in their later years.
I'm sure it would have to be terribly confusing and difficult to kind of know you are gay, but not know for sure how to go about being okay with it. If that makes sense? Or having the family be okay with it. I do know of just one family who knew their son was gay, accepted it and helped him grow into an adult normally and without the struggles so many teens face. I know that is painfully very rare.
I mean it's obvious from Oberon's example that we don't need some special training for their childhood, but I'm sure it would have been nice if your family knew straight away and was able to be there for you emotionally as you explored your teenage and young adult years, you know?
See I can't even imagine cuz it was hard enough for me just being a heterosexual teenager, with all the crap that goes with that. Of course, my parents weren't really prepared for the little teenage bitch they had for a few years then. lol. I just ramble, but I hope people know what I mean.
but the question is.. do you think it will ever happen? that it will just finally be univerally accepted so kids don't have to go through any unecessary angst in being a teen, plus being a gay or lesbian teen?
I think is pretty funny that people worry about "turning" their child gay. While I'm sure you could probably convince someone of almost anything, I have grave doubts that it would stick.
Point of reference, most (only because I try to avoid absolutes do I not say "all"...lol) gay kids grow up with nothing but heterosexual role models. I, myself, never meet anyone that I knew was gay until I was 19 (22 before I actually talked openly to one). I grew up playing with cars and trucks. I played sports- football and baseball (and I was pretty good... in baseball, good enough to be the star player for several years). Yet, with all that "heterosexual influence", I'm still gay. Always have been.
I think parents would be better prepared by learning how to help their child if they happen to be gay rather than worrying about keeping them from becoming gay (because- quite frankly- that's out of their hands).
I may have to look into that book! Sounds like some fun summer reading!
I think it's great to raise the kids with toys they want to play with. In my family, I was the tomboy making mudpies in the sandbox and eating them (was wormed on a regular basis!), captured all the bugs, have scars up and down my legs from scratches and cuts, etc. My brother hated to get dirty and was prissy and whiney and fragile. lol. We both turned out normal cuz my parents just let us be! By "normal" I mean we didn't grow up confused or ax murderers or something. Our sexual preferences certainly don't differentiate between being normal or not.
I do know parents who are soo caught up in making sure the boys play with trucks, etc. and it's so silly. I babysat my Godson the other day and we had so much fun at our antique shop dressing him up in vintage hats and minks and taking pics. His mom said they were cute, but not to let his dad see them cuz he'd have a fit. Geeze, the kid is 3 and had such a great time.. kept saying "Try this hat! Take my Picture!! Let me see!" I'm pretty sure I won't accidentally mold him into being something he's not. (although the play dress up fun was his idea - future fashion designer in the future?? I could only hope so!)
lilly,
If you enjoy how the brain works you might want to read a little book BRAINS THAT WORK A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENTLY
BY ALLEN D. BRAGDON AND DAVID GAMON, PH.D
While this book does not discuss this topic, I believe that there is a difference.
I raised all three of my children ( 2 boys & 1 girl ) that there was no such thing as a boy toy or a girl toy ... they are just toys. If , you enjoy playing with it play with it. My oldest son insisted on a babydoll with all the works...he learned to sew, he got it . My daughter wanted to mix chemicals... she got it . My youngest just wanted to think , build computer and cooking .. so he got it. It did not matter to me if something seemed socially boy or girl.
The point is they all grew up to be the "norm" for their sexes.
My daughter has 3 children. My oldest has dated womenand plays soccer, and my youngest too.
These children should be given the choice. The normal child does not truely notice the difference between the sexes until they are 4-5 , unless it is brought to their attention.The child has limited social contact outside the family until then that their sex is brought in to question.
[QUOTE=Quote (oberon @ June 15 2005,05:07)]Uh, Lilly, I don't want to nit-pick, but I think you mean transgender not transvestite. Transgender persons feel that they have been born into the wrong sex body. Transvestites just like wearing clothing of the opposite sex... they can even be straight. Anyway...
[/QUOTE]
Eeeek, you're right! Thanks for setting me straight on that. i got my trans's wrong. duh!! got it mixed up in my head.
Uh, Lilly, I don't want to nit-pick, but I think you mean transgender not transvestite. Transgender persons feel that they have been born into the wrong sex body. Transvestites just like wearing clothing of the opposite sex... they can even be straight. Anyway...
There was an article recently about a study where they tested how straight women/straight men/gay men responded to pheromones. It seems that gay men and straight women both respond sexually to male pheromones while straight men didn't. I thought that was interesting. To me, that says that something is working on a genetic level. I think they have also found differences in the brains of gay men verses those of straight men.
I believe that's why the idea that you can change someone's sexual orientation is such rubbish.
You know, I asked my psychology professor if the brain waves functioned differently for transvestites or even gay and lesbian subjects. She was unsure, of course! grrr.
I still would really like to know. I would think it has to function differently. If there is obvious signs of difference in the male and female brains, I would think there would be for transvestites. Gay or lesbian is questionable because they are the sex they are and don't feel they should be something else, but I still just wonder.
I'm not trying to lump anyone together or say anything rude, so forgive me if I come off weird. I just think the brain is soo cool and could unlock a lot of information to finding out how we are wired properly. It's just that we have a lot more differences than just straight man/straight woman. If the brain actually reflected differences it just seems, oh hell i dunno. I'm not trying to explain anything just figuring it out. lol. this post makes no sense. Maybe I'll add or edit it later. lol.
I know this was an odd subject for me to bring up... I was just angry after I watched the program. It was like the instant gratification of assigning a label was more important than the future happiness of a person.
Of course, I, persoanlly, can't help but relate the gay thing to this. The idea that people can be changed from how they are genetically put together... it's just wrong.
I think only the very weak willed could be formed into a sex. It is psychologically proven that males and females have different characteristics beyond anatomy. Their brains even work differently. Information is sent through different areas. It's all very cool! But I guess if someone kept telling you something, you would trust them and believe them. And they have a 50/50 chance of actually being right and not screwing up your life entirely! lol.
Very sad!
society seems desperate to "label" everyone from birth onwards into the rest of their life, be it their sex, colour, religion ect
people cant seem to accept something that doesnt fall into the caragories that have been created...
maybe when people are more open to the fact we dont know everything about everything they will accept new things?
LOL, Lilly. You may be right, but...
This girl knew a friend of mine and had apparently talk about me to him. I never really dated in high school and she knew this. One of the first things she said to me was "I wondered if you might be gay." ARGH! But we still slept together. It's kind of funny because I get to use that old cliche of "experimenting" while in college... just not the way most people mean it.
I just hope she knows it wasn't her... it was me and my issues that caused the breakup. We were really close and I kind of left her hanging.
God, I'd NEVER do that now. I was so shy and introverted as a teenager. Coming out for me was like popping the cork out of a bottle of champagne.