For those struggling.

[EvilEvilKitten]

Actually NO The Spartans did NOT engage in homosexuality - since they were a culture totally focused upon having as many soldiers as possible to the point of freeing men who fatherd 5 sons from military service as well as giving him tax breaks.

Whatever you know of Ancient Greeks - just reverse that for the Spartans.

[EvilEvilKitten]

There most definitely is an anti-bisexual male "double standard" in America.
And bisex males are perceived as being "less than a man" but most esp if he "receives" anal sex.

This anti-male "double standard" also applies to men who comply with domintrices but that's another issue.

Silly, really, since another person's opinion about your masculinity/femininity is inconsequential to anyone who accepts him/herself.

[RedRoses]

Originally Posted by big916

i can only speak for American culture and there is a double standard RR. you being bi is acceptable but only if you are what American's call a lip stick lesbian(the girly girl look). your bisexuality in American culture would bring more value to a relationship because men say the more the merrier. where as men being bi or gay they are looked at by some as more feminine and therefore less of a man.

Then that's just a sad example of how tolerance has a long way to go...

To every bi-man out there I'd like to say that if a woman feels that you devalue her and your relationship by your sexual orientation, then she is not worthy of you. A relationship is the place in which you should feel safe to be yourself. She is trying to make you feel bad over something you should not feel bad about. She's trying to gnaw at your self esteem. Don't let anyone take that from you! Be proud of who you are!

[RedRoses]

Originally Posted by EvilEvilKitten

Actually NO The Spartans did NOT engage in homosexuality - since they were a culture totally focused upon having as many soldiers as possible to the point of freeing men who fatherd 5 sons from military service as well as giving him tax breaks.

Whatever you know of Ancient Greeks - just reverse that for the Spartans.

The fun fact would be that even though the word homosexuality is derived from "homos" meaning "the same", the Greek did not have a differentiating term for homo- hetero- or bisexuality. All were considered one and the same desire.

Homosexuality in the sense of pederasty was a system that was transferred from Kreta to Sparta and Athene in the 7th century B.C. (as described by Percy, "Pederasty and Pedagogy in Archaic Greece", 1996). Pederasty is a system under which a young warrior in his early twenties took a teenager of his own aristocratic background as a beloved until the age of thirty, when service to the state required the older partner to marry and relieved him of his army-duties.

The thing is; within the army it should most likely not be thought of as homosexuality in monogamous bonds as we know today. Think of it as sexuality between male friends; a type of brotherhood. That would in no way interfere with fathering 5 sons. Especially not given the timeframe of conscription and marriage.

[big916]

Originally Posted by EvilEvilKitten

Actually NO The Spartans did NOT engage in homosexuality - since they were a culture totally focused upon having as many soldiers as possible to the point of freeing men who fathered 5 sons from military service as well as giving him tax breaks.

Whatever you know of Ancient Greeks - just reverse that for the Spartans.

you may be right completely EEK but i was just referring to when they are away with only their fellow brothers in arms to please each other as RR is talking about.

Originally Posted by EvilEvilKitten

Silly, really, since another person's opinion about your masculinity/femininity is inconsequential to anyone who accepts him/herself.

true, but when you are in high school some are still learning to accept themselves. which goes back to the OP by Calliton.

[EvilEvilKitten]

Sorry, hun but the majority..as in most armies of today.

I'm not diisputing anything w the OP merely adding in further info.


Well the Greeks had two "love" spiritual and carnal.

[big916]

How is the tolerance in holland RR ?

[RedRoses]

Originally Posted by big916

How is the tolerance in holland RR ?

Admittedly; I'm rather open-minded and considered very accepting. But throughout the nation, there is high tolerance. It's actually our reputation as Dutchmen

On homosexuality there is clear tolerance and acceptance. I had a gay teacher in high school and a lesbian teacher in primary school. It's not like they would show off, just like you don't show off you're hetero. It's just that we all knew and no-one thought odd of it. We allow gay marriage since 2001. And they can also adopt children (though it appears to take more trouble). In the army homosexuals were first allowed about 30 years ago, 20 years ago the climate within the army changed to acceptance. In the '90s the troops abroad got both Playboys and the Gay-newspaper send to them by the ministry. Guess that says a lot

I recently saw an episode of Spuiten en Slikken (Dutch show on sex and drugs on the national tv channel) in which the difference between US and our culture was emphasized. Magician Hans Klok was their guest. We all know the man is gay. Yet; when he went on tour in Las Vegas with Pamela Anderson, they kept it quiet. Just because the US is so much more conservative. There was a chance it could ruin the kick-off. It wasn't a real secret for any journalist that would do some digging. When they did, he saw headlines with "gay magician". You will not find that here. Cause what has got his sexual preference to do with his profession?

On bisexuality, I am yet to meet the person that has a problem with women being bisexual. Admittedly; there is a bit more surprise when a man admits to be bi. I'd qualify that as harmless amazement. Or as one of those tv-hosts that recently came out, said: "guys are just far more prudent than girls". People certainly don't lose a career or job or anything over sexual preference. Your boss won't even ask. The exception would be some religions and religious organizations. Although we even have several Christian churches that marry gays

Amsterdam used to be the most tolerant capital in the world, but we recently (since 2009) have problems with increasing violence against homo, bi and transgenders; esp boys holding hands. And the nation just gets so upset over things like that! Guess that emphasizes how much we care.

Don't get me wrong; it's not like everyone's talking sexuality here like we're talking about the weather It's more a protect our equality, accept eachother for who we are and live and let live attitude. There is some intolerance growing towards Islam at the moment, which I think is sad...

[big916]

in most parts California is similar regarding tolerance. i have had gays teachers and no one really cared. we are still working on everyone accepting gays in the military. the biggest obstacle is the southern states. a lot of people there still do not accept miscegenation. you either have to be black or white. my cousins experienced that when living in Louisiana. as far as the gay magician i think reporters like to put people on the spot and make them pick a side. whether its about being gay or straight or if you accept people's right to choose.

[Thecalliton]

thanks for the historical discussion there...
anyways, I am glad you all like my story, now could someone else share? I want alot of people to be able to read this and go "That is just like me! It must be ok to be bi" or gay.