Gay

[TexasGuy]

Okay, Oberon, you're starting to sound like a bad diatribe by William Shatner now...

[oberon]

OUCH!!! *That was a low blow, TexasGuy! * *

[TexasGuy]

Sorry, but the only thing you left out was about the prime objective and not interfering with alien cutures...

[oberon]

Prime directive: *To try and get along without killing each other.

Not interfering in alien cultures: *How about not trying to force your views on a culture that you may not understand?

[heavy Scottish accent]
"We're at Warp Eight, Captain! *That's all she's got, and I canna give ya anymore!"

[Tessie]

Well boys I have been following this thread with lots of interest. And I just want to jump in here to say that this has been one of the most respectful threads on homosexuality and the opposing views I have ever read.

I applaud you all for not turning this into a gay or Christian bashing thread. You have all stated your views without attacking the person. Most civilized. *

I belong to an Evangelical Christian message board and for the most part it is a great place with really great people. But I have seen it turn very ugly. And this is Christian against Christian with the same beliefs. Thank God the place has great moderators that don't tolorate the "I'm a better Christian then you" game.

I so am not jumping in here with my own personal opinons. I don't judge others. That job is left to God Himself. I do believe completly in the Bible as God Holy word. I also believe that if you are going to go quoting scripture you darn better know what you are talking about.

Its late and I am rambling. I do that. * I just wanted to say that I followed this thread out of curiosity to see if it would turn ugly and I am very pleased to see it hasn't.


On a side note, a nice poly/cotton blend is very nice in my opinion. Makes ironing much easier. *

[oberon]

Thanks, Tessie. *I must say I've been pleased over all with this thread. *I will say I was a little disappointed in a previous poster (no names) with an opposing view because he just kept saying "It's wrong!" *with no explanation. *And there have been the occasional nasty posters, but they usually manage to get themselves deleted and/or banned. *TexasGuy has more than made up for them though. *

My only other dissatisfaction has been the lack of an answer to my oringal question. *Seventy-four replies and not one has given me a non-religious reason showing why homosexuality is a bad thing. *Oh well...

[TexasGuy]

But who ever said there WAS a non-religious reason?

I can't think of one for these things either:

* (safe) pre- or extra-marital sex
* jealousy
* envy
* swearing or vulgarity
* worshiping idols or other gods
* astrology
* arrogance
* consenual divorce
* lust
* frequenting strip clubs
* disrespect for others
* gluttony

I think most of these things are only considered wrong (by those who consider them so) due to religious reasons. I know some of them can also have negative or undesirable consequences in some circumstances, but not all of them necessarily would every time.

I am more puzzled by the basis for the Bible identifying certain things as wrong that aren't quite as obviously harmful, though. Most sins have obvious destructive effects on either the one doing them or else someone who is affected by them.

Oh, and thanks for the nice things you said, Tessie! Yes, I think we have managed to keep it civil and respectful here, which I also appreciate. Unfortunately too many "Christians" seem to forget the Biblical admonitions about the greatest virtue being unconditional love and that "mercy triumphs over judgment" when it comes to discussing their pet issues -- like homosexuality.

My guess is that they make themselves feel better that way, since many of them have no personal experience with or knowledge of that lifestyle and therefore they can cast their stones without feeling guilty, like they would if they were to rail against the many other sins that they ARE personally guilty of, some on a daily basis!

Amazing how many "Christians" have a problem with a gay person but not with speeding -- which would fall under breaking the law of the land, also a sin according to the same book!

[Rawbob]

The bottom line on the "goodness" or "badness" of the REALITY of homosexualtity, is that it's always based on some sort of so-called "higher" issue:
- god made adam and eve, not adam and adam.
- it's not "natural"
- it's against the bible, and other religious-based arguments.

ANd the IRONY of this argument is, IF homosexuality was part of a religion, the Government would have a much tougher time enforcing their "view" .....but....thats another argument.

The other major question is have yet to hear ONE SINGLE well thought out reply is: WHAT HARM IS DONE IF 2 PEOPLE OF THE SAME SEX LOVE EACH OTHER? They want to live together, build a legacy of love, maybe raise adopted children, pay their taxes, be good neighbors, etc..whats everyone so damned afraid of?

Ok, so it's different. For some it's akward (mostly seeing 2 guys together)......but yet, it's NOT akward to see 2 women dancing on a club dance floor holding hands..hmmm.

It's about perception. And perception, my friends, changes with time..and we're seeing this change coming and just like in the 50's during the Landmark Legal decisions of Brown vs The Board of Education - SEPERATE IS NEVER EQUAL.

SO, while we can enjoy a vigerous debate - which is very very healthy - the sands of time are falling on the side of tolerance and equality.

And on the day we celebrated the beginning of the end of segregation - Massachusetts became the first state in the Union to recognize marriage between same sexes. That IS the first domino to fall. You can expect to see a rapid change in the law as there is NO WAY the Supreme court will say that separate schools for black children is BAD...and seprate marriage rights for gay couples is GOOD.

I'm very excited to be living in these times. I have a husband who i love desperatly. We're closer now after 8 years then ever before, our children (from our prior marriages) know and love us (and they even get along), our parents love and accept us, and we have (belive it or not) NEVER experienced gay bashing. We have wonderful friends. My hubby and i work at the same company, and everyone knows we're gay and are a couple. The company dosn't see us as "gay" first..but as valuted employees. We work for a company that employs about 300 people, so we're not some HUGE company that feels the need to be Polictally correct when it comes to diversity - our company just dosn't CARE that we're gay - just that we do a full day's work for a full day's pay, are loyal and help the company succeed.

SO, WHAT THE HELL'S THE PROBLEM HERE? hahahaahha

"Here endeth the sermon, here endeth the lesson" haha

[TexasGuy]

Why is there an assumption that if God prohibits it, it's "bad"? What if it's just not the best, or what was originally intended, or what we were designed for, or what would make us complete, or what would give us the most balance, or what would help us to relate to God?

Of course, there is research to support the position that there are harmful consequences. You can't discount the behavioral risk connection with HIV/AIDS (as much as it's politically correct to do so). Children lacking both a male and female parental figure often suffer various emotional problems later (I believe Newsweek recently ran an article on this). A larger percentage of homosexuals have dealt with suicidal thoughts (you could argue this is due to society's intolerance I guess). And, at least for the gay men I have known, almost all have expressed serious interpersonal problems/tension between them and at least one of their parents (usually their dad).

As far as the sands of time and the direction of society, from my knowledge of history it seems to go in cycles, never always in one direction. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see. But for most religious people, Supreme court decisions and societal norms will never define what is right and wrong anyways. Like I said previously, you cannot legislate morality. Not for either side of the debate.

But regardless of your opinion on these issues, you're right -- opposition to it is usually based on religious reasons. For that matter, so is the concept of tolerance and mutual respect.

And I guess what I'm saying is, just like you expect those who hold that point of view to be tolerant of YOUR life and choices (and I think they should), you should also be tolerant of their disagreement with you. Not everyone has to agree, right? Not with me, and not with you.

On another note, I am glad to hear that you work in an environment that is so supportive of you and values you for who you are! And that you have such a great family and friends as well. That's something no court can ever change.

[oberon]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 19 2004,07:35)]Of course, there is research to support the position that there are harmful consequences. You can't discount the behavioral risk connection with HIV/AIDS (as much as it's politically correct to do so). Children lacking both a male and female parental figure often suffer various emotional problems later (I believe Newsweek recently ran an article on this). *A larger percentage of homosexuals have dealt with suicidal thoughts (you could argue this is due to society's intolerance I guess). *And, at least for the gay men I have known, almost all have expressed serious interpersonal problems/tension between them and at least one of their parents (usually their dad).

TexasGuy, I'm not going to quote the list of other things considered wrong (unless someone makes me), but I could give you good sound non-religious reasons why most of them are bad. *But on to the above quote:

HIV/AIDS- *Of course there is a behavioral problem. *Let's see, you can't be honest about your sexuality, you can't display any sort of affection in public (no "normal" dating for us), you can't discuss relationship issues with friends and family, you have no goal to work toward, ie marriage. *Is it any wonder gay people are promiscuous. *How well do you think straight people would do under the same conditions? *I believe you could find that under similar conditions the straight community would have the same problem. *The recent news from the straight porn industy comes to mind. *

Children- *Hmmm... I wonder how many children who have both parents "suffer various emotional problems later"? *It's not who raises you, it's how you are raised.

Suicide- Well, you answered somewhat your own point. *How long do you think you would last with people continually telling you that you are immoral? *Dying and going to hell? *A pervert? *A pedophile (statistics to the contrary, people always mix this in)? *Or the flip side of hiding from everyone who you really are? *My lord, it's enough to make just about anyone schizophrenic! *The fact that most gay people are as well adjusted as they are is a testiment to their strength.

Parents- Oh yes, the parents have grown up with the same prejudices we all face. *But those conditions are imposed from the outside. *If people weren't taught that being gay was bad, then there would be no stigma attached to having a gay child. *I, personally, think it's sickening that society forces parents to choose between loving their child and doing what is considered "right".

I have always been somewhat incredulous that the majority of straight society has created the conditions under which gay people are forced to live, and then have the nerve to bash us with the results.

TexasGuy, your points are all good ones. *I would certainly be the last person to say that gay society doesn't have it's problems. *Maybe if we can quit having to fight just to survive, we can get around to fixing some of them.