Gay

[oberon]

Rawbob, you (and others) might find this story interesting.Gay Brains

The question of whether it is a choice will rage on. Except for those of us who ARE gay. We know.

[TexasGuy]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (oberon @ May 04 2004,08:57)]The problem comes when a religious majority want to make those views law. *Take the marriage issue for instance. *It is a religious majority that thinks that marriage should be denied to gays. *My religious beliefs don't encompass that. *So why, just because they are a majority, should their religious tenets be more important than mine. *Gay marriage would force nothing on anyone.

First off, glad you didn't take it the wrong way. No offense was intended, so thank you for being a good sport about it.

Secondly, I'm glad you feel that you are doing what is right for you. Each of us must be true to ourselves, right? Of course that doesn't guarantee that all the choices we make will be the "right" ones but at least they will be our choices, not those that others have imposed on us.

Regarding the last comment, the one quoted above: I would agree with you 100%. You can't -- and shouldn't try -- to legislate morality. It has to be a person's own internal decision. I happen to believe that homosexuality is wrong morally, based on my religious convictions. However, I also believe that premarital (straight) sex is wrong, adultery is wrong, lying is wrong, breaking the law is wrong... my point is, it should not be elevated above the many other things that religious people tend to view as wrong, as if it's a greater sin. Most religious people I know are willing to wink at those things -- "I mean, c'mon, those things happen" -- but get all upset about gay marriage, etc. And that's where I see a disconnect.

I'm not sure that any of us, when it comes right down to it, has any "rights", really, but if you're talking about the law then I would absolutely, even as a straight Christian man, support full and equal rights for homosexuals, their right to marry, not be discriminated against, etc. Because I think they should be free to live their life as they see fit (I almost said "have chosen to" but I know that might open up that whole other can of worms!). I guess that famous quote about not agreeing with you but defending to the death your right to say it comes to mind.

I agree that gay marriage forces nothing on anyone, just as straight marriage doesn't. We should be able to live with one another in harmony, respecting each other's viewpoints however different they might be.

Bottom line -- I don't think you should try to legislate morality or ethics. I believe God gave every one freewill to do as they pleasen (although I do believe we are accountable for such choices). No man should try to deny that to anyone.

(Okay, getting off my soapbox now...)

[oberon]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire (1694 - 1778), (Attributed); originated in "The Friends of Voltaire", 1906, by S. G. Tallentyre (Evelyn Beatrice Hall)

Texasguy, I believe this is the quote you were looking for.

I liked your post very much. Even though I don't agree with your religious viewpoint, I, too, would defend your right to it to the death. I like this take on religion:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] "Caverns of Socrates" by Dennis L. McKiernan:

-You mean the one true way is hard to find?

-Oh no, it's truly easy. All you have to do is believe without question.

-Believe what?

-Believe, truly believe, in whichever particular one you select from among the infinite number. For you as well as all others of a like mind, it will become the one true way if you believe without question, and you and your companions will become the enlightened, the elite, the elected, the chosen- no matter what you pick- just as those who choose differently will be ignorant, deceived, lost, doomed.

Would that there were more Christians like you, but most of them are "Christians". I wonder how many of them will be shocked when God doesn't look and act just a they think He should? You mean God isn't WHITE!?! a Baptist?? a Republican?? I think some poor souls could be in for a rude awakening...lol.

Thanks for your posts. I have enjoyed them, and I'm glad you decided to join us. Feel free to private message me with any questions (about the board or being gay) that you might not want to ask publicly.

[TexasGuy]

Thanks for finding that quote for me... I was being lazy and I appreciate you doing the homework!

And I appreciate the message behind yours... great reference! It is easy for people to think their way is the only way, isn't it? I've been there myself in the past, but am trying to be more open-minded while still remaining true to the basic essentials of my faith (none of which involves worrying about a supposed "gay agenda" or opposing others' choice of lifestyle).

Yes, I realize most so-called "Christians" are not the best examples of unconditional love, acceptance, mercy, gentleness, understanding, etc. And that's too bad. I don't think that's the message God wanted us to get. I think a lot of religious people have forgotten Jesus' teaching "He who is without sin cast the first stone." We're all in this boat together, and none of us has made all the right choices in our life.

I've often wondered how I'd be viewed if I ran for President -- as a conservative Christian who strongly opposes any attempt to legislate what people choose to do with their own bodies, and supports the same protections & privileges for all. I suppose that both sides would find that hypocritical, huh?

Now I'm going to ask you to explain one of your previous postings under another thread:

-----------------------------------------------------------

"I think there are people who disapprove of gays who aren't homophobic. Prejudiced and bigoted maybe. But there are some for whom it is a fear."

-----------------------------------------------------------

Which am I, pray tell... afraid, or prejudiced and bigoted?

Because I'd like to advise my many previous gay co-workers and friends, my former manager at work, my older brother, and the friend whose hand I held as I sat with him in the hospital while he died slowly of AIDS in 1993. I think they ought to know.

[Bewitching]

Ok, i dont have heaps of time AT THE MOMENT to post much here, but i feel very strongly about this topic.

My boyfriend and I always end up in HUGE argument over the 'gay' issue. *He (to me) seems to have very weak viewpoints on gay people in general which is why i get so worked up over it. *Which is why i'm not even going to bother stating what he thinks - it's illogical and irrelevant.

What i am going to say however, is that i 100% support gay/lesbian rights.

There are many great posts here, it's a shame i didn't get to read it in time before Mike deleted his. *Not to worry though, by the sounds of it he would've gotten me worked up anyway.

When it comes down to it, the 'wrong' part of being gay comes souly from the bible - but what bible?! As oberon has strongly stated, not all people are the same religion, why the hell do you think war started in the first place? Religious beliefs. *That was before it turned to power and greed which is the way the world is turning out in general - sinning before god.

To get straight to my point: *There are only 2 species in this world that encounter upon sexual intercourse for pleasure purposes - Humans and Dolphins. *Sex isn't always about reproduction, it's also about discovery, emotion and pleasure. *It's about having a good time and being safe about it. *So, if we have sex for pleasure, then isn't that what god intended? *

The bible, i feel, is a bit like chinese whispers. *The outcome at the end is never the same as what it was in the beginning. *There have been edition after editions of bibles being produced over (what i'm estimating) 2004 years - whether it be paperback or slate. *Sit in a circle of friends, play a game of chinese whispers for less than 1 minute and it doesn't even get past 20 people without the story being changed - how about a story going through Millions of people over thousands of years? *I think the theory would change just a tad...

Man to Man, Man to Woman, Woman to Woman - we're all HUMAN, and humans - as god intended - have sex for PLEASURE. *So whether you're attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex should no have any effect on society. *And i agree about 'gays' being a possible way for god to slow down reproduction. *And if i'm a huge believer in "everything happens for a reason" - those things that 'happen' you just can't help. And as its been strongly stated previously by many of our postees, you can't just "choose" what sex to prefer - and if you can't then it's obvious you're bi-sexual. *I strongly recommend reading the link that oberon posted about "Gay Brains". *

One thing that will always remain mind boggling AND SO FRUSTRATING is that men think "gay is okay - as long as it's women" but if men are gay...oh, totally different story.

I wish i could state some more viewpoints today, but i must leave and get back on here tonite, so that's my 2 cents.

Hope to hear some more responses, also, i regret not finding this topic sooner! *

[oberon]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 04 2004,22:39)]Now I'm going to ask you to explain one of your previous postings under another thread:

-----------------------------------------------------------

"I think there are people who disapprove of gays who aren't homophobic. *Prejudiced and bigoted maybe. *But there are some for whom it is a fear."

-----------------------------------------------------------

Which am I, pray tell... afraid, or prejudiced and bigoted? *

Because I'd like to advise my many previous gay co-workers and friends, my former manager at work, my older brother, and the friend whose hand I held as I sat with him in the hospital while he died slowly of AIDS in 1993. *I think they ought to know.

Hmmm... I don't remember making that statement, but I'm sure I did (sounds like me...lol). *I just hate it when something I've said comes back to bite me in the a##!

Okay, I think I can explain this statement, and hopefully do so without offending you. *Believe me when I say that is NOT my intent. *From your description of how you deal with the gay people in your life, I'd say you are a good person. *

However, I would still say you were operating under a prejudice. *As in:

Webster's New Dictionary of the English Language: prejudice- 1. damage esp. detriment to one's rights or claims *2. an opinion made without an adequate basis

May I say that your's would be the "best" kind of prejudice- as I can assume from the tone of your posts that you do not try to force your views on anyone else. *But you are basing the fact that homosexuality is wrong on "The Bible says..." or at least "People say this is what is Bible says...". *With this post, if I counted correctly (which is a challenge...lol) and adding Bewitching's post which wasn't there when I started this, there are 46 posts on this topic and not one person has given me any harmful effects of being gay. *The only reasons are religious ones. *Some religions feel that eating pork is wrong, but would you want a law that made it illegal? *

You gave a list of things that people consider sins that people "wink" at and equate homosexuality with that. *I think I know where that comes from, but that's because you assume being gay is a choice. *While I can't scientifically prove it, I do not. *As I said before, your's is the "best" kind of prejudice, but whether you realize it or not, it still does damage. *You mentioned a friend who died of AIDS and holding his hand in the hospital. *While I'm going to assume you don't actually feel this way, had that been me, I would be wondering if you felt like maybe I brought it on myself by being gay. *Your brother may hesitate to come to you for help with any problem that relates to his being gay. *Now I don't know you personally, and you might relate to these people in a way that allows you to set aside your disapproval. *I just know that I would be uncomfortable with getting help or advice from someone who might think "Well, you wouldn't have this problem if you'd just change." *As a point of reference, I often wonder- even if they don't say it- when I reply to posts on here, if some people don't think, "Well, I didn't really want advice from a f#@!". *I don't let it stop me, but I do wonder...

Texasguy, you seem like a very nice person, and as I said a good person. *So I truly hope none of this upsets you or offends you. *I'm more than willing to discuss this as much as you like. *Thanks for your input.
****************************************
Bewitching: *I loved your post! *But I have to correct something that you said. *You said only two species engage in sex for pleasure. *That's not true. *I know of at least one other. *The Bonobo chimps. *They not only engage in sex for pleasure but also as a way of reducing violence. *Chimps are a very violent species ( you can tell we are related), but the Bonobos have the most peaceful chimpanzee society on Earth. *And guess what?? *There is also sexual play between member of the same sex! *Instead of fighting, they have sex. *Looks like the old sixties slogan was right: "Make Love NOT War". *Works for me....lol. *

[TexasGuy]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (oberon @ May 05 2004,17:10)]"I think there are people who disapprove of gays who aren't homophobic. *Prejudiced and bigoted maybe. *But there are some for whom it is a fear."

2. an opinion made without an adequate basis

Well said, Oberon! Now here we go again...

First of all, I maintain that your quote above reveals your OWN prejudice -- in your case, against anyone who disapproves of gays (presumably heterosexual males). Apparently anyone who disapproves of your point of view is therefore prejudiced, bigoted, or afraid. Isn't this the very definition of intolerance?

Secondly, you infer that I have an opinion that has been formed without an adequate basis? What, exactly, would an adequate basis consist of for the sake of this argument? Would I, myself, have to be gay?

Yes, you're right about me basing my personal belief about the rightness or wrongness of homosexual sex on the Bible (several other world religions based on other texts also share that same stance). But I thought I addressed this in my first post: if you're going to discuss whether something is "right" or "wrong" you're going to have to bring a moral code into the picture, and every person is entitled to subscribe to their own set of values. Yours may say it's fine, mine may say it's not. But just because I disagree with yours or you disagree with mine does not negate the validity of our own personal convictions on the matter.

No, I wouldn't want a law against eating pork (because I'm fine with it), just as I said earlier that I wouldn't support any laws against gay sex, rights, or marriage. I don't want any anti-pork fanatics imposing their moral code on me, just as I know you don't want Rush Limbaugh imposing his on you. : )

No, I don't assume being gay is a choice. I think it's a complex result of genetic predisposition, hormonal factors, upbringing (e.g. relationship with parents), and maybe some societal influence, too. But I do know that gay sex is a choice, just as straight sex is. Just because I'm predisposed towards a certain way of being doesn't always mean I MUST act on that influence. Personally, I'm often predisposed to be unfaithful to my wife, or to go to strip clubs, or maybe even be aroused by cartoon characters (see other post!), but I have to make certain decisions that I feel are the best ones for me and those I love. I don't always make the right ones, but I'm not going to blame them on anyone else... they are mine and mine alone to make.

The guy who I sat with got HIV/AIDS from sexual activities he engaged in. He knew this as much as anyone. I didn't look down on him for it, or blame him, or try to make him feel guilty about it, or feel like "he got what he deserved." I just tried to be a friend in his last weeks... went and read books to him, sat and held his hand (not the most comfortable thing for a straight guy to do), fed him. I don't think he felt anything but love and compassion from me, 'cause that's how I felt.

My brother doesn't even know I know he is gay (a friend told me), and has probably never sensed any change in how I've treated him or how we get along as brothers. We emailed back and forth 3 or 4 times just today.

I can understand why you wouldn't want advice or help from someone who was, at the same time, blaming you for your situation. I wouldn't either. And I think you might be pleasantly surprised what the Bible really teaches on that subject. Let's just say, most "Christians" have got it wrong. What does "Do unto others..." really mean anyways? According to my faith, I would treat you in exactly the same way that I would hope to be treated myself. Loving... compassionate... sensitively... with dignity... etc.

You seem nice too, oberon, even for a gay guy! I've had many friends who are gay and most seem surprised that I'm not what they expect of a typical straight guy. In fact, a few have been surprised that I've been a little more up-to-speed than they are about musical theatre, art-house film, and trends in modern cuisine... maybe heterosexuals don't have a monopoly on prejudice and stereotyping after all, huh?



Oh, and as far as species that do it for pleasure, I think it's safe to say that the porcupine does NOT belong on that list!

[TexasGuy]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Bewitching @ May 05 2004,16:22)]One thing that will always remain mind boggling AND SO FRUSTRATING is that men think "gay is okay - as long as it's women" but if men are gay...oh, totally different story.

Oh, and as far as that goes, no -- I don't think it's "okay" for two women. It just appeals to me, that's all. Because it's two WOMEN.



But I'll admit, we straight guys have a notorious double-standard in this department, yes.

[TexasGuy]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Bewitching @ May 05 2004,16:22)]The bible, i feel, is a bit like chinese whispers. *The outcome at the end is never the same as what it was in the beginning. *There have been edition after editions of bibles being produced over (what i'm estimating) 2004 years - whether it be paperback or slate. *Sit in a circle of friends, play a game of chinese whispers for less than 1 minute and it doesn't even get past 20 people without the story being changed - how about a story going through Millions of people over thousands of years? *I think the theory would change just a tad...

So, Bewitching, which theory or teaching of the Bible regarding homosexuality do you think has changed over the years, exactly? Is there a certain verse that you think does not reflect the author's (or God's) original intent?

[oberon]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]First of all, I maintain that your quote above reveals your OWN prejudice -- in your case, against anyone who disapproves of gays (presumably heterosexual males). Apparently anyone who disapproves of your point of view is therefore prejudiced, bigoted, or afraid. *Isn't this the very definition of intolerance?

Actually, no, the very definition of intolerance is:

Webster's New Dictionary of the English Language: intolerant (intolerance)- 1. unable or unwilling to endure *2. *unwilling to grant equality, freedom, or other social rights

While I possibly admit to the same prejudice I described for you (opinion made without adequate basis), I am quite willing to allow anyone any beliefs, freedoms, or rights as long as they do not infringe upon mine. *Therefore, prejudiced maybe, but hardly intolerant. *And I would hardly assign the role of those "who disapprove of gays" solely to heterosexual males ( Anita Bryant springs to mind) but usually they are the most visible and vocal.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]Secondly, you infer that I have an opinion that has been formed without an adequate basis? *What, exactly, would an adequate basis consist of for the sake of this argument? *Would I, myself, have to be gay?

I would settle for proof positive that being gay was in some way harmful to someone/anyone- including the gay person him/herself. *After all, the title of this topic is "Gay: Why is it bad?". *So on some level, you must disapprove of that "badness". *Here we go:

Webster's (again) *bad- 1. below standard: poor also unfavorable *2. spoiled: decayed 3. wicked also not well-behaved: naughty 4. disagreeable also harmful 5. defective, faulty: not valid 6. unwell, ill 7. sorry, regretful syn evil, wrong, immoral, iniquitous

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]But I thought I addressed this in my first post: if you're going to discuss whether something is "right" or "wrong" you're going to have to bring a moral code into the picture, and every person is entitled to subscribe to their own set of values.

I personally don't see where being gay or homosexual fits into any of the above definitions at all. *If you can, then feel free to elaborate. *I really insist that this not turn into a religious debate, so I will skirt around this the best that I can...lol. *My "moral code" is probably very similar to your's. *Most major religions have things that they believe to be wrong or "sins". *The Bible is pretty clear on these. *Murder, lying, stealing. *All of these take something from someone. Life (murder), truth (lying), livelyhood (stealing). *And, in my opinion, all are self-punishing. Murderers- any criminal expert will tell you that those who kill in cold blood lose something of themselves- a part of them dies. *Liars lose their credibility ( and any close friends). *Thieves loses their conscience (and any trust not only of others if-when- they are found out but of their own of other people). *I fail to see how being gay fits into these ideas of what is wrong or harmful.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]But I do know that gay sex is a choice, just as straight sex is. *Just because I'm predisposed towards a certain way of being doesn't always mean I MUST act on that influence. *

Yes, but unless you can show me that it is harmful, I don't see why I should stop. *And don't bother to trot out the "gay lifestyle" ( I detest that expression) as an example. *You know: promiscuity, drugs, emotional problems. I would like to see heterosexuals bear up as well under the societal pressures that homosexuals have dealt with. *Unable to be who you really are (fear of the loss of family, friends, job, home, LIFE), unable to marry ( no way to stabilize a relationship), no guidance or role models, and certainly no approval.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]The guy who I sat with got HIV/AIDS from sexual activities he engaged in. *He knew this as much as anyone. *I didn't look down on him for it, or blame him, or try to make him feel guilty about it, or feel like "he got what he deserved." *I just tried to be a friend in his last weeks... went and read books to him, sat and held his hand (not the most comfortable thing for a straight guy to do), fed him. *I don't think he felt anything but love and compassion from me, 'cause that's how I felt.

My brother doesn't even know I know he is gay (a friend told me), and has probably never sensed any change in how I've treated him or how we get along as brothers. *We emailed back and forth 3 or 4 times just today.

I just know that had I been the friend- although I would NEVER have said anything, especially to someone who was kind enough to stay with me through a terrible illness- it would always be there in the back of my mind. *Wondering if you thought this was because I was gay.

My mother and I are very close. *She (for pretty much the same reasons you do) disapproves of being gay. *I feel that we miss out on a lot since there is a important part of my life that we just don't talk about. *Which leads me to ask, do you wonder why your brother has never told you he's gay?

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]And I think you might be pleasantly surprised what the Bible really teaches on that subject.

And what make you so sure that I don't?? *It might surprise you to know that I grew up in a VERY conservative, Christian home with parents who did a fairly good job making sure I didn't even know gay people existed. *It might also surprise you to know that I still consider myself a Christian. *Most denominations might not agree, but that's their problem- not mine.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]I've had many friends who are gay and most seem surprised that I'm not what they expect of a typical straight guy. *In fact, a few have been surprised that I've been a little more up-to-speed than they are about musical theatre, art-house film, and trends in modern cuisine... maybe heterosexuals don't have a monopoly on prejudice and stereotyping after all, huh?

Ah, so you're a metrosexual, huh? lol

And no, unfortunately we are all prone to prejudice and stereotyping. I have a very good black friend who snorts every time I quote someone black who says blacks can't be racists. *I'm afraid gays can be just as heterophobic. *We all have to work on that.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]Oh, and as far as species that do it for pleasure, I think it's safe to say that the porcupine does NOT belong on that list!

And the hedgehog... definitely the hedgehog. *There is a great book by Terry Prachett with a song in it called "The Hedgehog Never Gets Buggered At All"...lol