Natural does not mean Safe!!!

[Brandye]

Ducy has finally set me off on a rant. A person eating a healthy and well balanced diet needs no supplements.Not for kidney health, prostate health, penis enlargement or anything else. There are branches of alternative medicine (herbalist, naturopath, homeopathic physician) that specialise in this stuff. That should indicate that specialised knowledge is desireable.

Often on the Board someone points out that what he is taking is safe because it is natural. Natural substances include opium, hemlock, curare, cyanide and all snake venoms. Natural can kill. And natural can cause unexpected results. Ducy has been taking all sorts of supplements recommended by the janitor at the gym or some such. He cannot get it up right now. Why? One of his recent fads, Milk Thistle, has a known side effect of impotence!

I had a patient with all sorts of strange ailments. Out of frustration, I tested him for metals in the blood serum. He had enough zinc to galvanize a tub and no copper. Each of those is necessary but when it was announced two decades ago that zinc was necessary for prostate health, many men started megadosing zinc. Problem is zinc drives copper out of the body. His symptoms were not from the presence of zinc, they were from the absence of copper. He had not told me about his supplements because "they are not medications."

OK, a daily vitmin pill is not going to hurt anyone. Most of the stuff is peed away because most vitamins are water soluble and, when excess, are removed by the kidneys. But there are fat soluble vitamins (A, especially) that are not eliminated and we can poison ourselves with an overdose. Most psychotropic medications have sexual side effects. Guess what! Most herbal psychotropics do, as well. Help youself to the St John's Wart just do not expect your sex life to remain as good as it. If you take blood thinners for other reasons, stay away from natural stuff for prostate health. Vitamin E, chamomille tea and, especially, most antibiotics turn off your birth control.

If you live in Europe you have access to homeopathic physicians and chemists. Talk to them. If you live in many countries, naturopathic physicians are available. Talk to them. Many places with sboriginal populations have many good herbalists. Talk to them.

I am likely in as good health and condition as any woman on the Board - my minimum is 150 miles/week on a bicycle. I take premarin for menopausal symptoms and have a few beers a week. Enough supplements for me. I will not even prescribe birth control pills with iron added (designated by Fe in the name). If a woman needs iron she gets iron sulfate - separately. There is enough trouble titrating hormonal birth control levels without the digestive problems of added iron.

Whether it is natural or chemical (and by the time you touch the stuff it has all been chemically modified) it will have side effects. Stay away from that stuff.

[sera300]

THANK YOU BRANDYE!

years ago we could not figure out why older people were getting dig toxic in the ER...sudden run on it with normal doses. The answer came out fast...HERBALS used to increase memory! Similarly found was the BCP failure w/those taking St. Johns Wort.

Just because one can purchase OTC "herbals" or "Supplements" doe snot mean one should be taking them.

I chose to take a class later offered for Health-care workers, RN's, MD's, NP's, and PA's. The results of the findings off all those covered in the three day seminar were frightening at best. The point is; do not take these without supervision of a trained specialist. Use either your Doc or Licensed Homeopath prior to adding any of these to your diet. The results can be devastating & cost one their lives...some cause you to bleed to death...

[Ducy]

Brandye, I agree with much of your "rant", but the very first line is subject to personal goals and such.

If you are someone who loves to work out, and wishes to be a bodybuilder or fitness model, supplements such as a protein shake is necessary for muscle growth. It is impossible to "eat" 1.5 to 2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight, and 2.5 to 4 grams of carbs per lb of bodyweight. That is why some people need to supplement. Also post workout protein shakes can aid in recovery and help maximize anabolism.

As far as just a normal everyday "average joe" you are right, they do not need to be supplementing with items unless instructed otherwise by a doctor or herbalist. I saw far too many men coming in trying to buy a years supply worth of saw palmento because they feared for their prostate, or buying a 2 months supply of DHEA and using it in less than a month.

[sera300]

Ducy buy Muscle & Fitness magazine & read their diets for workout & body building. Too much protein is bad...

[Brandye]

Ducy has sent me a personal message taking exception with how I said the above. For that I apologize. He is into supplements; I consider them to be between dangerous and useless outside certain limits. And their interactions with one another, medications and what else we consume can cause real medical problems.

Consider that a homeopathic physician has essentially the same education as I (an allopathic physician) with a different pharmacopeia. Natural substances, some dangerous if not properly administered (same as "chemical drugs"), are the medications used. These doctors really understand supplements with six years or so of education.

Naturopathic doctors, including napapaths, limit their practices to administration of proper stuff to cleanse and heal the system. Unlike many of my colleagues, I hold them in high regard - for their very specialised knowledge of all supplements and diets. They have usually studied four or more years and serve internships with experienced naturopaths.

Herbalists, regrettably not usually controlled, learn their skills through apprenticeships - often many years long. While they are sometimes dismissed as charlatans or medicine men, they have knowledge of using plants and their extracts, tinctures, teas, etc, well beyond any traditional doctor.

I do not wander into this area because, being a mere allopathic physician, I lack the specialised knowledge. I do know how to find what the various stuff will do with the drugs I prescribe.

I apologize, Ducy, for the comment about your janitor.

Brandye

[sera300]

There are so many substances out there marked natural yet are so hazardous. Look at the supplement "Foxglove" add that into a person's body and you have a recipe for disaster.

Ducy is in to the body building; however, everyone please realize how many patients end up ill while the underlying cause was; not discussing the herbals or supplements they are taking with a doctor.

Renal failure or liver failure really is not very pretty nor are overdoses. These are not intended to be taken lightly.

[Ducy]

No worries brandye. You do bring up a very good arguement as to why many people should be careful with what they ingest. Natural is not always the safest route to go when it comes to your health.

And to anyone else who wishes to get into bodybuilding, also please be aware that there are some dangers behind it, and that you must research before you just start doing things.

[EvilEvilKitten]

I am not a doctor of any kind BUT I am a gardener and I do know my plants. I also have children and grandchildren and know that PLANTS CAN KILL. Mushrooms being a prime example where even specialized knowledge may not save you from making a deadly mistake. Some of the most poisonous plants are often the most striking within a landscape. The various foxgloves are beautiful but I will not plant them. Particularly striking is henbane.4 feet of blackness from root to leaf-tip and yet - no. I will not plant it because even touching its leaves can kill a susceptible person.

They are all perfectly natural but so is Ebola, and any plague you'd care to name. The reason why "we" of the developed world seem to forget this is because we have more or less secure water and food supplies and effective medical facilities and are buffered from the ills that most of the people on this planet face every day. When was the last time you saw someone who had polio?

The most effective method for building a man's muscles is heavy manual labor while feeding him a massive yet balanced diet. I have raised a 6' 6" son and cared for husband and brothers all of whom are well over 6 ft tall and built like Everest. 12 oz of meat at every meal with corresponding green and white vegetables and cornmeal mixed with whole wheat and rye in the bread along with milk and a beer, a few eggs. Yeah they eat well but they physically work to the point where they need it.

Military MRE's are formulated to sustain 18 to 24 yr old males in full combat and most guys eat two MRE's at every meal and one for a snack when they get the chance. That is a massive amount of nutrition in the smallest package possible. If you're in doubt, eat those instead of supplements.

I eat 1 meal per day: dinner consisting of 8 oz of meat, a green salad or a steamed green vegetable, 1/2 Cup of some starch, 12 oz of 2% milk, and 1 glass of red wine. This is all I need because I do not do heavy manual labor. I also do not take any medications, supplements and so on with the exception of one baby aspirin per day due to my age because the doctor told me do it. I admit I sometimes forget to take it. Sorry.

If I want more protein, I know where and how to get some *EG*.

The grandchildren take vitamins but we are careful and make sure they do NOT contain iron. Iron can be toxic even in adults but it is of esp concern for children. Only menstruating and pregnant women need additional iron in their diet - assuming they do not eat things like red meat and spinach. My adult daughter has been put on a multivitamin by her doctor because of her requirements.

My point is that we should not just listen to advertisements but should actually consult trained professionals in the fields concerned to get the proper guidance.

Thank you, Brandye, for saying what needs to be said.

[SirCumSized]

Please give more info on St John's Wort. I have been taking 1 per day for some time now. NOW I'm getting worried. I also take 1 small magnesium pill and 1 Cardio Aspirin.

[Ducy]

Why is it you are taking the st johns wort?

PM me and I would be glad to help you out. Whats the dosage of the magnesium pill? Like mg? And for what reason are you taking it?