That's interesting, SD... and probably significant, altho I tend to get worried about generalities. LOL Having said that, I'll make a couple.

I think part of what's going on is a tendency to separate "marriage" from the "relationship" and all too often that puts the cart in front of the horse. People tend to believe we marry for certain benefits instead of marrying to enhance our relationship with the person we love. If two people aren't married in heart, mind and body, what's the point of a legal document and ring?

Additionally, too often marriage is seen as an end instead of a beginning. I think it's a rare couple that realizes marriage makes it easier to have a loving relationship. Most people tend to believe "marriage is hard." I'm not trying to negate the challenges, certainly. Simply suggesting that if you build the relationship and focus on it, you'll not have to worry so much about staying married.

Perhaps these long engagement types have seen how the constant courting of engagement keeps the romance and courting going. When you "tie the knot" it's over. That's obviously a huge mistake, but we ought not to blame it on marriage.

"We have met the enemy and he is us."

Marriage these days seems to convey a blissful compliment to the others character or self-worth. Not so much of a commitment I think and here's why I think this:
In working with and going to school with a large amount of "twenty somethings" there seems to be a pattern. When marriage is talked about there seems to be more importance stressed on the engagement than the actual ceremony itself. I have met quite a few girls that would be content with being engaged for over 7 years bofore marriage; to my surprise I might add. I have met many couples that have been engaged for 4 or slightly more years.
The only reason it seems they feel the need for marriage beyond engagement is: Title, benefits, and ceremony for family ("to appease the traditions of the elders" as one classmate put it.)
It's almost like mutal honor for holding each other in such high respect; until that changes.

Rawbob just thought of some points idea

3 pts won't keep a steady job
2 pts doesn't keep a clean house
2 pts unplanned preg.
4pts drug/alcohol abuse
2pts withholding sex

automatic revoke for physcial abuse.

It could help marriage. I think I may ask my husband if to give this points system a try. LOL (I could be in big trouble myself!)
Like weight watchers point system...LOL

Only problem I would really have with the point system is that some people whom wanted out before the end of the 5 years without having to really work on issues would abuse the other person just to get enough points.

however I just love the idea of points! Maybe it could work that if you are over your points limit at the renew time you would not be allowed renew .

In fairness to this thread It was started on the question of is marriage here to stay or will we end up like Na .

Marriage will continue , I just think it needs reform and refinement. That a lot of thought needs to put into it before spending the avg. $10,000 for a wedding. and $10,000 for a divorce.

We need to teach our children that it is not perfect...even though movies and tv often show it as perfect.

I married my second husband eyes wide open... but it still does not make it easy. We will be married till death do us part... sometimes the prison term for killing him looks good.

Rawbob,
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat idea on the points !!!!! Had never thought of that !!!! WOW ...... LOVE IT !

i LOVE the idea of having to renew your marriage liscence!

But, our friends on the religious right seem to have convinced everyone that a state-issued marriage liscence handed to people at a religous ceremony should be treated differently then if you just went to a justice of the peace or the court house.

It's the religious zelots that are wrapping the bible and god around a paper contract - binding (for str8 folks) in every state in the union.

I would fight my ass off to have marriage liscence's renewable. Can u imagine having a "points" system like with your drivers liscence?

4 Points: Infidelity
2 Points: Running up credit card bills beyond means to pay
4 Points: Convicted of a crime

god this would be fun to keep going! Just think, you get "x-number" of points and your marriage liscence is revoked! ahahahaha

Any ideas on other point allocations?

[QUOTE=Quote (Tessie @ June 05 2005,06:56)]I do think marriage should be based on more then love. I married my husband because I loved him. We didn't do much talking about issues we might have problems over. We just believed our love could conquer all.[/QUOTE]
Wow

I think love CAN conquer all, but it takes a very special relationship between two very special people for that to happen.

I believe much of the difficulty with marriage stems from a myriad of factors including:

We are living in an age where instant gratification has become an expectation. People are substituting marriage for a relationship and then letting the marriage define the relationship.

We are living with a huge lack of opportunity to actually experience true and pure love. How does one understand something rarely seen or experienced?

To some extent, the same thing could be said about parenting skills. We expect people who didn't experience good parenting to somehow become good parents.

I know a woman who must make an excellent wife, she's had lots of practice... six or seven times at last count. In the course of her marriage career she's had two sons... ironically one born outside of marriage! One son is a deadbeat druggie, the other is a very angry and abusive teenager. They both had excellent role models.

Context, it's always about context. We can view marriage so many different ways... religious contexts... political issues... social engineering... it may be just that is the diversity that keeps marriage "alive" as an institution.

At the more intimate and personal level... I think as our lives unfold we can begin to understand that the magic is that we can define love and and at the same time let love define us - those two actions are not at odds with each other. They may, in fact, be the epitome of true love and how we make love conquer all.

Lilly, you sound like a teacher I once had... she said of parenting... "They take the toughest job in the world and give it to a bunch of amateurs." It would be great if people had to prove they could be parents before they had children. Although, I have no idea how you would enforce that... since from reading these boards, many people aren't real clear on how one ends up pregnant in the first place.

Lilly , thanks , came up with that all by myself years ago.That's why it took me amost 10 years to marry my second husband. He asked me 4 times before I said yes. I had to give marriage a very long and very deep thought before doing it a second time.

Off subject... I love the input of the kids being registered ! The IRS makes you do it ! LOL

Maggie, that is the MOST excellent idea I have ever heard!!!

Wouldn't that be cool? To just renew it? if you didn't want to keep it going, just let it expire? I like that. I know others will not. lol. And there are kids to think about and all that jazz, but it would be cool for someone like me who would like a commitment, but hey, who knows in 5 years how things will be. And I don't really plan on having kids, so it would be perfect. there could be a new addendum or something for if kids are brought into it.... or ooh oooh better yet you would have to register to have a kid! lol. I know they could never really do that, but it would be cool. If you had to pass a test to show you are even competant enough to have a kid. You know!!! The reason this comes to mind is the fact that so many people have kids when they have no business raising people. Example: I was talking on the phone to a customer during the evening. In the background I hear one of her little girls (she has 5) saying she can't sleep because she has a ccold and can't breathe. Her response? "Sleep with your mouth open. " Wow! Great mom!!! She needs to apply for a license. lol.

okay, I went off on a tangent. lol. sorry.

I believe marriage will continue for our own temporary selfishness of love. However, I would like to see a few changes in marriage licenses. Currently we get the license and it is good "till death do us part" or divorce. Which is normally very ugly and messy. We look at the person whom believed we loved at one time and wonder .. who the hell are you and question yourself .. why did I ever marry you ?

I must renew my drivers license every 6 years. I must license my dogs every year. I must register my car tags every 2 years.The goverment requires me to file my taxes yearly.

Before I could get my drivers license I had to take a test. When I license my dogs , I must sign a letter stating that I understand the laws in our county pertaining to dog ownership. When I register my car it has to have a full inspection before they will issue the new tags. The goverment requies me to disclose my ss #, # of dependents , job title , and how much I/husband made over the past year and have over 600 pages of rules and regulations I must follow.

I would like to see marriage licenses have an expiration date.
With that being said there would need to be guidelines set in place before marriage. WE COULD END DIVORCE IN OUR LIFE TIME. No more ugly divorce.

I think every 5 years would be good. If you don't renew your marriage license ... you are not married. If you desire to renew your license you would need to go to a marriage counslor, have your marriage get a professional check up. Review your pre marriatal documents update the information and any division of property that should be gained over the next 5 years.

I think people would give a lot more thought to what they are "getting into " if there was more to " getting into it."

This will most likely never happen, but think of the possiblities.

How much harder would one work on the relationship if they knew in 5 years it was going to be reviewed ? What would one do to keep the relationship in tip top shape ?

[QUOTE=Quote (Rawbob @ June 06 2005,07:21)]The "Leave it to Beaver" form of marriage IS dead - of that there can be no argument.[/QUOTE]
Sure, there can...lol.  I don't believe it's dead because it was never around to begin with.   I don't believe anyone has ever had that "perfect" marriage where everything always works out fairly and happily.   That's just not life.

Rawbob.. I just want to say that you and your partner have an OUTSTANDING relationship! You can tell that you two really care about each other and how the other feels. It's truly a breath of fresh air. I wouldn't call the extra people here and there infedility. If it's something you both need every now and then it seems like your relationship is definitely strong and mature enough to handle it. I just had to say that even though it's kinda off topic. Sorry!

Anyway. I don't believe marriage will ever just go away. I always said I would never get married again after my first marriage because it was so freaking hard to get out of. But with my current boyfriend I feel like I wouldn't mind getting married again. At the same time I don't mind not getting married either. The only MAJOR reason I would need to marry him are for reasons oberon brought up. When I'm a nurse I'll have healthcare, it would be nice for him to have it as well at an affordable price. I would like to be able to make decisions if something happened to him or vice versa. Society places a lot of emphasis on marriage and it seems your life can only continue together with marriage. Ah hell, I don't know where I was going with that thought. lol.

The structure part is great in some ways. I mean do i really want it to be that easy to just walk away? Not really? But do I want us only staying together because we are married? not at all!! I want us both to always WANT to be together and not feel obligated. but that's really the tough part of the whole marriage thing I think sometimes. Knowing the other person is soo happy they are with you and you're so happy you're with them.. on a regular basis. I mean 6 years into your marriage are you still looking at your significant other and saying 'God I love them!' and not 'God I hate it when they leave those dishes in the sink'. you know? does that make sense??

The "Leave it to Beaver" form of marriage IS dead - of that there can be no argument.

The article harkens back to the "it takes a village" debate of a few years ago. And, when you compare what was said in the article to the USA we're really not that far off from those folks.

Think about it. 50% of all 1st marriage end within 15 years. What happens to the kids and even the ex hubby and exwives? They usually fall back on their family and friends for support. How manytimes to you hear about grandparents helping to raise their children's children? All the time.

I said this in another post.....i think it's more about monogamy then it is about marriage. Clearly, the words "for better or for worse" really are just that - words.

I'm not a pessimist, i have been with my partner for 8 years. We work our asses off every day on our relationship. We don't fight that much (we've pretty much experienced all 2 folks can experience) and when we do, it's never a HUGE issue. It's more the irritation shit that comes up and we don't let it blow itself out of proportion.

But, here's the thing, we decided 4 years ago to take the 2 issues that cause all breakups - sex and money - and put them always at the forefront of our relationship.

We have a new form of "vows" that we exchanged - I promise to NEVER make a financial decision without your complete understanding and support AND I promise to listen to and discuss your sexual needs and desires and further promise that when we choose to have sex with others - it is just sex.

Yep, we have sex (on occasion) with others. Most times we're togther with a 3rd, but a few times a year we have sex with others - but always upfront. No sneaking, no lying, and not often.

Belive it or not, for us, messing around with someone besides my partner has helped us take "sex" off the argument table.

Now, i'm fully expecting a barrage of negative remarks regarding our decision to allow limited infidelity. But we've both come to understand that i CAN AND WILL love my partner for as long as i live, but no matter what, we'll always LUST after others, WANT to play with others and its easier to manage that then to DENY the truth of it.

So, when i hear that monogamy is alive and well in America, we'll reconsider our new vows. But, i don't forsee that being a reality in my lifetime.

If you want to know more aobut how we manage this (and remember, we're talking about 3 or 4 times a year we play alone), feel free to send me an instant message.

I will tell you this, every day i love my partner more and more. And when we had our committment ceremony, i told him that "I can't finish a breath without you" and after 8 years, that's never been truer.

So, sex and money - the two virus' that attack the American concept of marriage - are alive and well. If more people put those at the forefront of their vows, then i think more marriage would survive!

Just my thoughs

(Oh, you knew I'd have to reply to this. )

If marriage is obsolete, then a lot of people are fighting for no reason.   I, personally, think it provides a structure that helps support love.

No, marriage isn't "necessary".... gay people have proven that.  For instance, tonight on the Tony Awards (well, I AM gay, after all) one of the winners thanked his life-partner (not husband, you notice?) of 35 years who had just recently passed away.  So you can have a long, loving relationship without a piece of paper.

The institution of marriage makes the day to day things of life a little easier.   Things most heterosexual couples take for granted.  Like inheritance.... the right to visit your partner in the hospital... custody of the children if one of you should pass... little things like those.   I won't even mention tax benefits or health coverage... Rats!  I just did.  Oh, well...

With all of that tied in together, does anyone really see an end to marriage?

Marriage is done, in my opinion.

Save for the religious right who won't leave the husband who beats them simply because they took a few vows.

If my parents couldn't stay together, why should anyone elses?!

*vindictive and spiteful*

I'm gonna try to marry a friend of mine, or another straight guy, if they allow it. Tax reasons.

That was interesting FW.

I do think marriage should be based on more then love. I married my husband because I loved him. We didn't do much talking about issues we might have problems over. We just believed our love could conquer all.

Well 17 years later I am on the brink of divorce. Mainly because I am tired of not having my needs met. Not sexual needs but emotional and the need to have someone truly share in the big problems instead of just letting me handle it.

But I do still believe in marriage and will get married again. Just this time I will use more then "Love" to decide if he is the right one for me and if the marriage will stand-up through the hard times. No more rose-tinted glasses for this girl.