EEK, I'm trying to verify if I understand your post. You mention 'being found inadequate'. Do you mean: when you are exclusive to someone and (s)he rejects you, you have been found inadequate? And that causes trauma?
Anyways, I'm really happy for you that you've got an open marriage in which you all are happy! :) I think you're totally right: what's not to like? Seems like you've got your life together in the way you desire it.
Also: I'm not saying that I will never change my mind (never say never ;)). It's just how I feel right now. I know I'm still young, but believe me when I say I've been through some difficulties and am carrying baggage. People leave you; no matter how long you've known them, how close you were, how much you still love them, whether you're family or married to them or not. I know they do. And it hurts like hell. But it also makes me the woman that I am today. Not bitter, just a happy girl that is a bit of a mess at times.
Then RedRoses, should you two break-up, the emotional trauma will be very painful.
But please realise that this "exclusivity" is a relatively recent social phenomena. Earlier it was considered a mark of hubris for a man to impose such restraints upon a woman who was not his wife or a woman to impose upon a man who was not her husband.
If you wanted "exclusivity" - you had to marry to get it.
This seems entirely reasonable to me. Think of it as "ante-ing up".
But as to why you felt ashamed at not dating around - that's another issue entirely.
Wouldn't argue that; it's true. The emotional trauma will be very painful. Wouldn't it have been if I had just pretended not to feel for him? That would be a lie to myself. The truth would have been inside me and would have gotten back at me... Btw: I don't believe in marriage. I don't want to restrain him; he should only stay with me out of free will (and be honest about it!)
The only reason I referred to this shame, is because it's the opposite of the shame others experience (dating around, while others expect them to stay exclusive, sometimes being called a names for it). I mentioned it because I feel that people are always trying to set (new) norms/standards of what should be done. And telling others what to do. Which causes those who don't to feel abnormal or ashamed. I think the key is acceptance, being honest to each other and simply sharing views. That's all I meant to say...
No, the 'trauma' with dating around is different because then it becomes confronting your own jealousies and insecurities - and confronting those and learning how to deal with them makes you a better person while the other - the betrayal of exclusivity/being found inadequate - implict in breaking up just makes people bitter and builds 'baggage'.
I believe in open marriages - they're great! A measure of security - esp for the kids, tax breaks, guaranteed inheritance, increased income, steady companionship and emotional support and rampant sex whenever I pounce upon him or vice versa along with a wide social circle of friends with benefits as icing on the cake. What's not to like?
But then again, maybe open marriages can preserve most marriages, I suppose, even though I'm not sure how that would work out.
It's something that I do want to mention should there be the chance that I do end up with the one I love.
RedRoses, I'm on the same boat with you on marriage. I don't believe in it. There are more reasons why I honestly can't. It's a document or a license of recognition. Ok, but that can be broken too, marriage is somewhat run as a business (explains the tax breaks one gets.)
On that note, I'm all for every human marrying whomever they wish to marry, so when the issue of civil unions with gay marriages come up because it is "immoral", I weigh those who commit adultery or cheat on their spouses as "immoral" too.
By that logic, there's no point in judging or putting limitations on who can marry. I'd rather see marriage be a representation of a couple's affection for one another...and whatever else goes on in the bedroom is clearly their own business...unless they are exhibitionsists or they want to tell anyone what they do.
Just several ways that I see marriage. It has no limitation, it shouldn't, so why does it?
Great post, goddess! :) This is funny when put together:
"It's a document or a license of recognition..... marriage be a representation of a couple's affection for one another."
That's exactly the thing! Marriage has different meanings that can exclude one another... Anyways, totally agree on that people should be able to marry whoever they like :) (Hmmmm, would have some problems with grown men marrying little kids, so let's make that: any adult they like? ;))
[QUOTE=RedRoses;254581]Great post, goddess! :) This is funny when put together:
"It's a document or a license of recognition..... marriage be a representation of a couple's affection for one another."
That's exactly the thing! Marriage has different meanings that can exclude one another... Anyways, totally agree on that people should be able to marry whoever they like :) (Hmmmm, would have some problems with grown men marrying little kids, so let's make that: any adult they like? ;))[/QUOTE]
Yep, for clarification's sake. Although in several cultures...it is deemed appropriate for a grown man to marry a young, and I mean young woman. I guess the theory with this occurence is the more younger the more fertile...that and the life expectancy rates around those cultures are usually low. :(
Young women equals adult :) But yes I know: there's a thin line. I think it's about being on an equal basis in a relationship, being 'developed' into an adult that can make his/her own decisions... Something like that. But it's hard to pinpoint it.
I certainly wouldn't be the one complaining about age-differences considering my relationship ;)
Yes, 'consenting' that's the word I was looking for :) O, when I write little kids, I do mean it that way ;) To marry here, you have to be 18 (=adult). You can marry age 16 with parental approval, when you can prove the girl is pregnant or has given birth. Otherwise you'd have to get state-approval (ministery of justice). Anyways, that's adult-like enough to me...
Maybe this is an odd question, but I've been thinking about it for a while now... Hope someone knows the answer: If a person starts 'dating around', having sex included, how does one remain deattached from the other?
This is a serious question, not rhetorical in any way... It's not like I don't believe that it's possible. I simply want to understand 'how?'. Or is there no 'how' to it? Is it not something you can learn; just something that 'is' or 'feels' that way?
Reason why I'm asking: because especially having sex is being deeply 'attached' physically to each other (for a short period of time)... And since whatever the body experiences has deep and strong connections to the mind and emotions (from a holistic point of view), how would you not feel some kind of bonding? Or even: not have the need to feel it prior to a physical act as such?
Perhaps I should look at it differently: perhaps there is bonding to some extend... Like: you do feel bonding, but feel it for more than 1 person? Hence: dating around could almost be the same as being 'exclusive' to more than 1 person? Even result in having a multi-relation with different people? Really, this is just me hopping around in me brains with questions: I simply wouldn't know!
[QUOTE=RedRoses;254797]Maybe this is an odd question, but I've been thinking about it for a while now... Hope someone knows the answer: If a person starts 'dating around', having sex included, how does one remain deattached from the other?
This is a serious question, not rhetorical in any way... It's not like I don't believe that it's possible. I simply want to understand 'how?'. Or is there no 'how' to it? Is it not something you can learn; just something that 'is' or 'feels' that way?
Reason why I'm asking: because especially having sex is being deeply 'attached' physically to each other (for a short period of time)... And since whatever the body experiences has deep and strong connections to the mind and emotions (from a holistic point of view), how would you not feel some kind of bonding? Or even: not have the need to feel it prior to a physical act as such?
Perhaps I should look at it differently: perhaps there is bonding to some extend... Like: you do feel bonding, but feel it for more than 1 person? Hence: dating around could almost be the same as being 'exclusive' to more than 1 person? Even result in having a multi-relation with different people? Really, this is just me hopping around in me brains with questions: I simply wouldn't know!
Replies are very much appreciated :)[/QUOTE]
I think it depends on the individual. In some people the various levels of 'bonding'/'love'/'attraction'/'sex' (not sure of the correct term that would encompass them all) are more connected than in others - these people would probably not feel comfortable in relationships in which these were detatched - in fact, they might suffer emotionally in such relationships. In other people, however, these are more separate from one another.
Think of it this way: if you had two kids, you'd love them both - very deeply.
Bone of your bone and flesh of your flesh but not sexual in any way although it is an intimate bond.
So there are different 'kinds' of love.
Combat units form deep and cohesive bonds - "band of brothers" - despite interpersonal tensions between individual soldiers. Nothing sexual or loving about it.
So there are different 'kinds' of bonds.
Birds do it. Bees do it. Even educated fleas do it. If it lives/reproduces sexually - it has sex. There's sex for fun; sex for reproduction; sex for bonding.
So there are different 'kinds' of sex - to put the term loosely.
Which kind of what one puts together is up to that person.
But if you think of sex as fun and as sharing pleasure with someone you like then where's the harm? Yes, we could all sit around an knit sweaters but, frankly, I can't knit worth a darn and would much rather take him to bed instead.
Having sex with him is also the fastest way to find out what he'd rather you not know. Is he selfish? Is he timid? Is he kind? Is he a bastard? Does he wear clean undies? Does he have issues? Well, strip him down and take him for test ride and you will find out because no one can hide when he/she is naked.
" I just don't like the conclusion that whenever I'd loose him, I'd loose a part of myself... " [btw, that's lose]
Who told you that stuff??? They're WRONG.
You do NOT lose a little piece of your heart for every man you sleep with outside of matrimony. Quite the contrary. Your heart expands and grows both larger and stronger with each addition, whether a romantic encounter or not, to its compass. And once taken into your heart - you cannot lose him or her. They remain there, just as you remain within him or her.
For example: I illegally dated during my later teen years a very nice older teddybear who, upon parting gave me a small windchime - dark green owl and pagoda made of metal, vaguely oriental in design. Now for the past 36 years that windchime has hung outside by my front door of each of my houses, we moved alot, and never failed to bring forth smiles. Even my husband likes it.
Now - have I lost this previous lover or a piece of my heart?
No, not at all.
Instead of being a loss, he enriches my life and will continue to do so.
Thank you for your posts. EEK, I agree with your view on how having sex shows you a sort of 'naked truth'. I also reckon that there are different kinds of love, bonds and sex. I recall I have been writing a post about it myself somewhere on this forum :) Thing is: I certainly can from an analytical point of view, but I don't understand: HOW? As soon as I'm cuddling about, naked and ready for sex, all I feel is emotions. Energy building up until it's under high pressure, that bursts when he enters me and starts swirling around through both our bodies. And that's a good feeling, yes hell it is!!! :D Every time we have sex, I end up loving him more (as beautiful as it is confusing)...
I have tried to focus on physical pleasure, separate it somehow, but that doesn't work. The way I orgasm is very much connected to this feeling. Whenever I masturbate, my orgasms are like a very high but very short peek. Whenever we make love, it's this rush coming over me again and again over hills and mountains :D Whenever I try to separate emotions from having sex, the lovemaking and my orgasms simply die along with it... And like you said: that really shows to him cause I can not hide: 'what's wrong baby?'
So maybe I should just consider myself lucky with this gift (which I very-very much do!!!), instead of wanting to be able to separate things... I just don't like the conclusion that whenever I'd loose him, I'd loose a part of myself...
Sorry for my spelling-mistakes :o I reckon I mix up words and they just slip through it sometimes, like 'your' and 'you're', 'their' and 'there', hi hi! :)
What a beautiful post EEK! Reconsidering; I guess that really is the way I want to look at it :) This relationship did bring me good things! And it would be a shame if it ended some day, that I wouldn't be able to cherish that past! After all; the past is connected to me and to the future and this makes me what I am. You know what: your post is going to be on my list of things I should not forget (it's not a list of daily groceries, just a list of life-motto's and wisdoms that I try to live up to...)
O, and I wouldn't know who told me this actually... It's just what it feels like... Very vague answer to your question; I know! I'll try to explain:
It's just that it feels like he is connected to a great part of my sexuality; he's not only my first, I was not sexual in any way before my relationship with him. All sexual feelings I have are focused on him and I don't seem to feel it for anyone else (yet?)... Part of what I've developed/learned (like the orgasms), is even strongly attached to my emotions and so: to my feelings for him. This causes me to not be able to see my own sexuality apart from him... I guess that's it... I guess that's the fear of loosing myself; loosing a part of that sexuality and connection to my own body (which I cherish since the day it came back to me)...
This is simply my braindump; does it make any sense? Anyhow; maybe the 'why' does not matter at all... It's more about the 'how'; how do I separate things? Hmmmm, would totally like to have a switch somewhere to experience both the 'melted' version of love-sex-bonding and just simply: sex ;) Just to keep it to myself... But like I pointed out: maybe I'm just very spoiled, considering what my body permits me to experience to the max!
How - some call it listening to your body or living in the moment but the point is accepting the animal within which the human lives and giving that animal its due. We're animals first, then humans, then women or men then an individual person - in ascending order.
Yes, an understanding of "how" comes with experience. His being your 'first' accounts for a great deal.
[QUOTE=ExtraChrisB;232446]Okay, so on this site I have noticed two different opinions regarding dating. I know DancinDoc and EEK are both for dating around, but on the other hand I know a lot of people consider exclusivity to be a better idea. So I wanted to create a thread for both sides of the table to toss around pros and cons of the other.
I honestly do understand both sides of the argument, but perhaps the rest of you can present some facet that the rest of us haven't thought of yet.
Why is dating around the way to go at a young age? Or why stay exclusive?
Tell me what you all think.[/QUOTE]
I was married at age 19. I dated a total of 3 guys before I got married. The marriage was awful, lasted a total of 1 year. I fouled around on him in a heartbeat. My husband was 5 years older than me, he dated around more, had sex with more people, and was more ready for marriage than I was. I'm 23 now and I've been dating a lot of people. Some day I want to try marriage again, but I want to experience being with more people. So staying exclusive is out for me.
I was too lazy to read over everything everyone said, but here are my two cents: I like things to happen organically, so I don't spend time thinking about whether or not I'm going to be exclusive with a person. It is the way it is. If I should fall in love and, even if temporarily, become disinterested in seeing other people- Then that's the way it is. And if all we have is friendship and I continue to be interested in other guys in my life, then that's the way it is. I go by feel more than anything else. I think not being completely shut down to the idea of "dating around" IS beneficial. From the people that I know, it seems you put a lot of constraint on yourself when you have huge expectations out of everyone you go out for coffee with, and you insist on being only in exclusive relationships. I could list the pitfalls, but I don't want to drag on and on. But I will say that to me it seems boring and predictable to plan out your life in the guise of deciding you want to marry and then looking for someone to do that with. I'd rather just enjoy things for what they are in the moment, and enjoy life's surprises.
I searched the site using the Search up at the top and it just brought me right back here :) So I googled it, and first I found something about these Native peoples who ate the lotus flower and it made them sleep in "peaceful apathy". And then I found this other site with this cool Jim Dolan poem. Um, going with the Jim Dolan, does it mean taking things in more? Being more mindful? I'll try to see if I can't find anything else....
Honestly, my feeling these days is more akin to FadedLove's. Previous to meeting my current girlfriend, I dated around. I, by chance, met my girlfriend. And by no previous planning, simply began dating her exclusively. That's the way we both wanted it, because we wanted to take the step and make things more committed.
In short, I dated around for a while, but stumbled upon something that feels really special so far. And I certainly don't regret it :D
I never dated around before. I've only had two relationships.
First girlfriend, she asked me out, and I said yes. Went 11 months before I realized she was cheating on me.
Second girlfriend, asked me out after responding to an ad on craigslist I put up. We hung out for a week before she asked for a date. We lasted 4 months until she left me.
For the first time I am dating around, and it feels a little good, and bad. I miss a good, solid, exclusive relationship. I miss having someone to love and to love me. I'm not sure what I want anymore, or what is better.
If you had read the original post, you would have known that gradually becoming exclusive - not because someone demanded it - over time is GOOD.
What's BAD is when exclusivity is demanded right from the start before you two have had time to get to know each other.
[QUOTE=shinji;259678][COLOR="blue">I never dated around before. I've only had two relationships.[/COLOR]
Two is good; more can be better.
[COLOR="blue">First girlfriend, she asked me out, and I said yes. Went 11 months before I realized she was cheating on me.[/COLOR]
Truth be told, and I know what you mean, however, you can not cheat on someone nor they on you--unless there is a contract.
Dating should be about going out with one or more people at a time, having fun, learning about each other, learning what you like and dislike in others, so that when Mr./Ms. Right does come along you will be better able to recognize the person.
[COLOR="blue">
Second girlfriend, asked me out after responding to an ad on craigslist I put up. We hung out for a week before she asked for a date. We lasted 4 months until she left me.[/COLOR]
The process of dating is transitory. Some dates will be one time events, others will last somewhat longer, others still will be long term; and eventually one will be a keeper.
For the first time I am dating around, and it feels a little good, and bad. I miss a good, solid, exclusive relationship. I miss having someone to love and to love me. I'm not sure what I want anymore, or what is better.
We do not need a solid, exclusive relationship, Sinji. What we need is to learn about others, and, to be available to others in order to someplace sometime to do something together. If you date one person, you can have exclusivity simply by the way you interact with each other--not by making a declaration and expecting both of you to hold to the agreement.
If you date two people at the same time, you are almost assured of a "yes" from one of them when you call and invite her out.
My point being, behave in the way you want your relationship to be, don't make it a "contract" of sorts by expecting exclusivity from each other. Behave like you are exclusive when the time is right.
[COLOR="blue">Exclusive, or dating around, I don't know which.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Asked and answered. You can have the best of both.
One of the first things that I noticed on this forum was the very definite opinions of DancingDoc, EvilEvilKitten and others regarding dating. Often their views are very different from what I have observed and experienced in my life, whereas for the most part I find myself nodding along with so much of what they have to say on other issues.
I’m wondering if there is a simple cultural difference at play. I am Australian and I can honestly say that the dating culture that is often talked about on this forum just didn’t exist in Australia when I was a teenager or in my early 20s.
Getting at least tipsy at a party, snogging someone you’d had your eye on and then wondering whether you’re ‘going out’ or not was pretty much the standard way things were done at high school. University was pretty much the same but you could replace ‘at least tipsy’ with ‘hideously drunk’ and ‘snog’ with ‘shag’. Classy! Dating was just not done – I actually think it would be a good practice for us to start doing. It seems a lot more civilised than what tends to happen here.
I didn’t actually go on a date as the first step in a courtship until I was 24. I had been on dates with people I was already at least a little involved with, but not as the first step to becoming involved. It’s just not really part of our culture, although it does seem to be slowly catching on.
Visiting Americans have commented on the lack of dating ‘rules’ in Australia and I can sympathise with them. Being asked on dates by Americans and Canadians when I was backpacking was absolutely delicious, although I suspect a few of them were surprised by how ‘easy’ I was. I’m not easy, I’m Australian, and our mores are different! Conversely one of my closest friends spent a year at UCLA and while she loved the dating culture, she was astounded by the attitude to sex. Grinding and virtually pole-dancing with several boys at a frat party before giving one a blow job in a secluded corner of the room was fine as long as you were a virgin, but having regular sex with the one guy was sluttish because it meant you weren't virgin (they were between 18 and 20). The girls in her dorm viewed her behaviour as a delightful cultural difference, but she’s pretty sure if she hadn’t been foreign she’d have been bullied as the dorm slut.
It just seems that we are more relaxed and laid back than other cultures,and it seems to me that we also seem to pick the person that we want to be with on a longterm basis,rather than run around with every "tom,dick and harry".Although in my early 20's i snogged every guy that showed an interest in me without sleeping with them.I guess i would have been a "cocktease".At 23 i lost my virginity on a blind date a work colleague set me up with.The chemistry was so strong that we had sex the night we met,and continued seeing each other off and on for the next 6 months.When i married at 26 i was faithful to my husband for the almost 8yrs we were together,and for the next 9yrs of separation until recently when i had a brief relationship with an aquaintance i had known for the last 10yrs.I'm back to occasional sex with my husband again.
The concept of a girl being 'easy' or a 'slut' is repugnant.
We all should erase such silly ideas from our minds.
Instead, consider her warm, generous, happy, sharing and fun.
and as you know I have no reverence for virgins or virginity since I regard it as ignorance being lauded and females being more valued for what lies between their legs (hymen) than for the content of their character, minds, hearts and souls.
Agreed EEK, my friends and I call it 'slut-shaming' and we stomp on it whenever we see or hear it. I don't think I was condoning it or buying into it in my post and if I did appear to, oops.
But it just seems that if a girl goes from one guy to another searching for the right one to settle down with that she has loose morals,but if a guy does it he's sowing his wild oats.Why the double standards?:confused:
With the luck I have had in terms of relationships, I would love to take the FWB route and not get emotionally attached. Take the best parts of the relationship (someone to talk to, having fun) and take out the emotional bs. I can't hold a long term relationship to save my skinny white arse.
This is a really long topic to read fully through but I managed it.
Anyway I've read all the opinions posted here-in and some I agree with some I don't.
I think the only way I can accept or condone dating around is if and only if it is clear to both parties what is or is not intended.
My issue is this, as idealistic and unreal it is to assume you will stumble upon Mrs. or Mr. right as if by magic, it is also completely unrealistic and completely fairytale to assume that people will be open and honest about what they want and what they are about. Fine if you want to date/sleep around then that's OK, but for me it would have to be with both parties knowing that it was that, I guess a declaration of none exclusivity. But too many people are players as opposed to daters.
For example, I'm not sure I would consider Doc or EEK to be players, they may be daters, but they seem to be open and honest about what they are about. In my books there is a huge difference between the two. Players are about deceiving and being completely selfish and manipulating people.
I guess I didn't realise there was a difference between dating around and playing until I read this.
What are peoples opinions on this difference?
I know Doc has mentioned that no contract is signed so I guess you can assume that there is no exclusivity, but lets be honest, that's as fickle as expecting the right person to knock on your door and say here I am lets live our lives together.
But then it's fickle to think that everyone is going to be open. The only difference is this, you have control over your own openness so you can turn round to a person and say, I'm testing the water or I'm in for life, and then probe their honesty. Yourself saying what you mean is better than just keeping quiet though I think. But then again, some people can't take that either.
Conclusion, any approach is fickle in some regards because people are just not the same. Which leaves me wondering, where does that leave us.
Personally, and this is something I definitely need to work on in myself, not saying something is worse than saying something, weigh your priorities, e.g. dating co-workers may be fun till you lose your job because of a messy breakup, go out and sample the field.
I guess the final question is, how do you sample the field in a way that doesn't involve booze, nightclubs or generally just getting pissed (maybe I am too fresh out of University and watching everyone go out get trashed and then get laid to see any other way). But there have to be other ways that also don't hold just one way tickets to I'm your best friend dead end scenarios.
You yourself being open and honest in itself will demand others be open and honest in their dealings with you. Simply being who and what you are will cause those UNLIKE you or NOT INTO you to stay away from you.
Because life is easier that way.
The fact that you "date around" indicates that you are not possessive and that you will not tolerate possessive lovers. It sounds too simple and too easy but - strangely enough - it really is how it works.
You see a tall good-looking woman dressed all in black and wearing stiletto heels and she has a certain 'dangerous allure' to her. You two make eye contact, she winks at you then looks away. Do you approach her and say hi or do you not?
See? By her presentation you already know certain things about her and you base your 'make a move or not' decision upon what you have learned.
Just pay attention. If you're into dangerous women with a lively sense of humor, you will approach her. If you're not into such women, you will pass her by.
Simple. Easy.
BTW - the trick with nightclubs is to have one to two but no more drinks when you first get there and to sober up by talking, circulating and dancing for the rest of the night while keeping a look out for women employing the same strategy. Ask every woman who wants to dance to dance but make no promises. (Whether you dance well or not is NOT the point. The point is you're getting women one-on-one where they have to pay attention to you.)
You then return home sober, well exercised with a couple of ladies' phone numbers.
HA it sounds simple when I read it, which makes me wonder, why on earth didn't I twig that? good advice. To be honest the thought of myself dating around is pretty daunting, but, I've read what you and doc have to say along with many others here and it's just one of those, get over yourself things and learning the difference between sex and love and that dating doesn't go straight to sex or love. Guess it had to happen one day.
EEK, I'm trying to verify if I understand your post. You mention 'being found inadequate'. Do you mean: when you are exclusive to someone and (s)he rejects you, you have been found inadequate? And that causes trauma?
Anyways, I'm really happy for you that you've got an open marriage in which you all are happy! :) I think you're totally right: what's not to like? Seems like you've got your life together in the way you desire it.
Also: I'm not saying that I will never change my mind (never say never ;)). It's just how I feel right now. I know I'm still young, but believe me when I say I've been through some difficulties and am carrying baggage. People leave you; no matter how long you've known them, how close you were, how much you still love them, whether you're family or married to them or not. I know they do. And it hurts like hell. But it also makes me the woman that I am today. Not bitter, just a happy girl that is a bit of a mess at times.
Then RedRoses, should you two break-up, the emotional trauma will be very painful.
But please realise that this "exclusivity" is a relatively recent social phenomena. Earlier it was considered a mark of hubris for a man to impose such restraints upon a woman who was not his wife or a woman to impose upon a man who was not her husband.
If you wanted "exclusivity" - you had to marry to get it.
This seems entirely reasonable to me. Think of it as "ante-ing up".
But as to why you felt ashamed at not dating around - that's another issue entirely.
Wouldn't argue that; it's true. The emotional trauma will be very painful. Wouldn't it have been if I had just pretended not to feel for him? That would be a lie to myself. The truth would have been inside me and would have gotten back at me... Btw: I don't believe in marriage. I don't want to restrain him; he should only stay with me out of free will (and be honest about it!)
The only reason I referred to this shame, is because it's the opposite of the shame others experience (dating around, while others expect them to stay exclusive, sometimes being called a names for it). I mentioned it because I feel that people are always trying to set (new) norms/standards of what should be done. And telling others what to do. Which causes those who don't to feel abnormal or ashamed. I think the key is acceptance, being honest to each other and simply sharing views. That's all I meant to say...
No, the 'trauma' with dating around is different because then it becomes confronting your own jealousies and insecurities - and confronting those and learning how to deal with them makes you a better person while the other - the betrayal of exclusivity/being found inadequate - implict in breaking up just makes people bitter and builds 'baggage'.
I believe in open marriages - they're great! A measure of security - esp for the kids, tax breaks, guaranteed inheritance, increased income, steady companionship and emotional support and rampant sex whenever I pounce upon him or vice versa along with a wide social circle of friends with benefits as icing on the cake. What's not to like?
An open marriage...(thinking)
But then again, maybe open marriages can preserve most marriages, I suppose, even though I'm not sure how that would work out.
It's something that I do want to mention should there be the chance that I do end up with the one I love.
RedRoses, I'm on the same boat with you on marriage. I don't believe in it. There are more reasons why I honestly can't. It's a document or a license of recognition. Ok, but that can be broken too, marriage is somewhat run as a business (explains the tax breaks one gets.)
On that note, I'm all for every human marrying whomever they wish to marry, so when the issue of civil unions with gay marriages come up because it is "immoral", I weigh those who commit adultery or cheat on their spouses as "immoral" too.
By that logic, there's no point in judging or putting limitations on who can marry. I'd rather see marriage be a representation of a couple's affection for one another...and whatever else goes on in the bedroom is clearly their own business...unless they are exhibitionsists or they want to tell anyone what they do.
Just several ways that I see marriage. It has no limitation, it shouldn't, so why does it?
Great post, goddess! :) This is funny when put together:
"It's a document or a license of recognition..... marriage be a representation of a couple's affection for one another."
That's exactly the thing! Marriage has different meanings that can exclude one another... Anyways, totally agree on that people should be able to marry whoever they like :) (Hmmmm, would have some problems with grown men marrying little kids, so let's make that: any adult they like? ;))
[QUOTE=RedRoses;254581]Great post, goddess! :) This is funny when put together:
"It's a document or a license of recognition..... marriage be a representation of a couple's affection for one another."
That's exactly the thing! Marriage has different meanings that can exclude one another... Anyways, totally agree on that people should be able to marry whoever they like :) (Hmmmm, would have some problems with grown men marrying little kids, so let's make that: any adult they like? ;))[/QUOTE]
Yep, for clarification's sake. Although in several cultures...it is deemed appropriate for a grown man to marry a young, and I mean young woman. I guess the theory with this occurence is the more younger the more fertile...that and the life expectancy rates around those cultures are usually low. :(
Young women equals adult :) But yes I know: there's a thin line. I think it's about being on an equal basis in a relationship, being 'developed' into an adult that can make his/her own decisions... Something like that. But it's hard to pinpoint it.
I certainly wouldn't be the one complaining about age-differences considering my relationship ;)
Yes, 'consenting' that's the word I was looking for :) O, when I write little kids, I do mean it that way ;) To marry here, you have to be 18 (=adult). You can marry age 16 with parental approval, when you can prove the girl is pregnant or has given birth. Otherwise you'd have to get state-approval (ministery of justice). Anyways, that's adult-like enough to me...
In Australia a 16 year old needs court consent and their parent's permission to marry. They can't marry at all before 16.
Maybe this is an odd question, but I've been thinking about it for a while now... Hope someone knows the answer:
If a person starts 'dating around', having sex included, how does one remain deattached from the other?
This is a serious question, not rhetorical in any way... It's not like I don't believe that it's possible. I simply want to understand 'how?'. Or is there no 'how' to it? Is it not something you can learn; just something that 'is' or 'feels' that way?
Reason why I'm asking: because especially having sex is being deeply 'attached' physically to each other (for a short period of time)... And since whatever the body experiences has deep and strong connections to the mind and emotions (from a holistic point of view), how would you not feel some kind of bonding? Or even: not have the need to feel it prior to a physical act as such?
Perhaps I should look at it differently: perhaps there is bonding to some extend... Like: you do feel bonding, but feel it for more than 1 person? Hence: dating around could almost be the same as being 'exclusive' to more than 1 person? Even result in having a multi-relation with different people? Really, this is just me hopping around in me brains with questions: I simply wouldn't know!
Replies are very much appreciated :)
You just asked a question I've been pondering too. :)
[QUOTE=RedRoses;254797]Maybe this is an odd question, but I've been thinking about it for a while now... Hope someone knows the answer:
If a person starts 'dating around', having sex included, how does one remain deattached from the other?
This is a serious question, not rhetorical in any way... It's not like I don't believe that it's possible. I simply want to understand 'how?'. Or is there no 'how' to it? Is it not something you can learn; just something that 'is' or 'feels' that way?
Reason why I'm asking: because especially having sex is being deeply 'attached' physically to each other (for a short period of time)... And since whatever the body experiences has deep and strong connections to the mind and emotions (from a holistic point of view), how would you not feel some kind of bonding? Or even: not have the need to feel it prior to a physical act as such?
Perhaps I should look at it differently: perhaps there is bonding to some extend... Like: you do feel bonding, but feel it for more than 1 person? Hence: dating around could almost be the same as being 'exclusive' to more than 1 person? Even result in having a multi-relation with different people? Really, this is just me hopping around in me brains with questions: I simply wouldn't know!
Replies are very much appreciated :)[/QUOTE]
I think it depends on the individual. In some people the various levels of 'bonding'/'love'/'attraction'/'sex' (not sure of the correct term that would encompass them all) are more connected than in others - these people would probably not feel comfortable in relationships in which these were detatched - in fact, they might suffer emotionally in such relationships. In other people, however, these are more separate from one another.
Dear Red,
Think of it this way: if you had two kids, you'd love them both - very deeply.
Bone of your bone and flesh of your flesh but not sexual in any way although it is an intimate bond.
So there are different 'kinds' of love.
Combat units form deep and cohesive bonds - "band of brothers" - despite interpersonal tensions between individual soldiers. Nothing sexual or loving about it.
So there are different 'kinds' of bonds.
Birds do it. Bees do it. Even educated fleas do it. If it lives/reproduces sexually - it has sex. There's sex for fun; sex for reproduction; sex for bonding.
So there are different 'kinds' of sex - to put the term loosely.
Which kind of what one puts together is up to that person.
But if you think of sex as fun and as sharing pleasure with someone you like then where's the harm? Yes, we could all sit around an knit sweaters but, frankly, I can't knit worth a darn and would much rather take him to bed instead.
Having sex with him is also the fastest way to find out what he'd rather you not know. Is he selfish? Is he timid? Is he kind? Is he a bastard? Does he wear clean undies? Does he have issues? Well, strip him down and take him for test ride and you will find out because no one can hide when he/she is naked.
" I just don't like the conclusion that whenever I'd loose him, I'd loose a part of myself... " [btw, that's lose]
Who told you that stuff??? They're WRONG.
You do NOT lose a little piece of your heart for every man you sleep with outside of matrimony. Quite the contrary. Your heart expands and grows both larger and stronger with each addition, whether a romantic encounter or not, to its compass. And once taken into your heart - you cannot lose him or her. They remain there, just as you remain within him or her.
For example: I illegally dated during my later teen years a very nice older teddybear who, upon parting gave me a small windchime - dark green owl and pagoda made of metal, vaguely oriental in design. Now for the past 36 years that windchime has hung outside by my front door of each of my houses, we moved alot, and never failed to bring forth smiles. Even my husband likes it.
Now - have I lost this previous lover or a piece of my heart?
No, not at all.
Instead of being a loss, he enriches my life and will continue to do so.
Thank you for your posts. EEK, I agree with your view on how having sex shows you a sort of 'naked truth'. I also reckon that there are different kinds of love, bonds and sex. I recall I have been writing a post about it myself somewhere on this forum :) Thing is: I certainly can from an analytical point of view, but I don't understand: HOW? As soon as I'm cuddling about, naked and ready for sex, all I feel is emotions. Energy building up until it's under high pressure, that bursts when he enters me and starts swirling around through both our bodies. And that's a good feeling, yes hell it is!!! :D Every time we have sex, I end up loving him more (as beautiful as it is confusing)...
I have tried to focus on physical pleasure, separate it somehow, but that doesn't work. The way I orgasm is very much connected to this feeling. Whenever I masturbate, my orgasms are like a very high but very short peek. Whenever we make love, it's this rush coming over me again and again over hills and mountains :D Whenever I try to separate emotions from having sex, the lovemaking and my orgasms simply die along with it... And like you said: that really shows to him cause I can not hide: 'what's wrong baby?'
So maybe I should just consider myself lucky with this gift (which I very-very much do!!!), instead of wanting to be able to separate things... I just don't like the conclusion that whenever I'd loose him, I'd loose a part of myself...
Sorry for my spelling-mistakes :o I reckon I mix up words and they just slip through it sometimes, like 'your' and 'you're', 'their' and 'there', hi hi! :)
What a beautiful post EEK! Reconsidering; I guess that really is the way I want to look at it :) This relationship did bring me good things! And it would be a shame if it ended some day, that I wouldn't be able to cherish that past! After all; the past is connected to me and to the future and this makes me what I am. You know what: your post is going to be on my list of things I should not forget (it's not a list of daily groceries, just a list of life-motto's and wisdoms that I try to live up to...)
O, and I wouldn't know who told me this actually... It's just what it feels like... Very vague answer to your question; I know! I'll try to explain:
It's just that it feels like he is connected to a great part of my sexuality; he's not only my first, I was not sexual in any way before my relationship with him. All sexual feelings I have are focused on him and I don't seem to feel it for anyone else (yet?)... Part of what I've developed/learned (like the orgasms), is even strongly attached to my emotions and so: to my feelings for him. This causes me to not be able to see my own sexuality apart from him... I guess that's it... I guess that's the fear of loosing myself; loosing a part of that sexuality and connection to my own body (which I cherish since the day it came back to me)...
This is simply my braindump; does it make any sense? Anyhow; maybe the 'why' does not matter at all... It's more about the 'how'; how do I separate things? Hmmmm, would totally like to have a switch somewhere to experience both the 'melted' version of love-sex-bonding and just simply: sex ;) Just to keep it to myself... But like I pointed out: maybe I'm just very spoiled, considering what my body permits me to experience to the max!
How - some call it listening to your body or living in the moment but the point is accepting the animal within which the human lives and giving that animal its due. We're animals first, then humans, then women or men then an individual person - in ascending order.
Yes, an understanding of "how" comes with experience. His being your 'first' accounts for a great deal.
[QUOTE=ExtraChrisB;232446]Okay, so on this site I have noticed two different opinions regarding dating. I know DancinDoc and EEK are both for dating around, but on the other hand I know a lot of people consider exclusivity to be a better idea. So I wanted to create a thread for both sides of the table to toss around pros and cons of the other.
I honestly do understand both sides of the argument, but perhaps the rest of you can present some facet that the rest of us haven't thought of yet.
Why is dating around the way to go at a young age? Or why stay exclusive?
Tell me what you all think.[/QUOTE]
I was married at age 19. I dated a total of 3 guys before I got married. The marriage was awful, lasted a total of 1 year. I fouled around on him in a heartbeat. My husband was 5 years older than me, he dated around more, had sex with more people, and was more ready for marriage than I was. I'm 23 now and I've been dating a lot of people. Some day I want to try marriage again, but I want to experience being with more people. So staying exclusive is out for me.
I was too lazy to read over everything everyone said, but here are my two cents: I like things to happen organically, so I don't spend time thinking about whether or not I'm going to be exclusive with a person. It is the way it is. If I should fall in love and, even if temporarily, become disinterested in seeing other people- Then that's the way it is. And if all we have is friendship and I continue to be interested in other guys in my life, then that's the way it is. I go by feel more than anything else. I think not being completely shut down to the idea of "dating around" IS beneficial. From the people that I know, it seems you put a lot of constraint on yourself when you have huge expectations out of everyone you go out for coffee with, and you insist on being only in exclusive relationships. I could list the pitfalls, but I don't want to drag on and on. But I will say that to me it seems boring and predictable to plan out your life in the guise of deciding you want to marry and then looking for someone to do that with. I'd rather just enjoy things for what they are in the moment, and enjoy life's surprises.
Valid and yet:
there's smelling the flowers and then there's eating the lotus.
lol. I don't know what that means, but OK.
Go look up and read The Lotus Eaters, then you'll understand it.
I searched the site using the Search up at the top and it just brought me right back here :) So I googled it, and first I found something about these Native peoples who ate the lotus flower and it made them sleep in "peaceful apathy". And then I found this other site with this cool Jim Dolan poem. Um, going with the Jim Dolan, does it mean taking things in more? Being more mindful? I'll try to see if I can't find anything else....
No, forget Dolan, it means "blissful apathy" and living an unexamed life without goals or direction.
Honestly, my feeling these days is more akin to FadedLove's. Previous to meeting my current girlfriend, I dated around. I, by chance, met my girlfriend. And by no previous planning, simply began dating her exclusively. That's the way we both wanted it, because we wanted to take the step and make things more committed.
In short, I dated around for a while, but stumbled upon something that feels really special so far. And I certainly don't regret it :D
Btw, it's good to be back.
I never dated around before. I've only had two relationships.
First girlfriend, she asked me out, and I said yes. Went 11 months before I realized she was cheating on me.
Second girlfriend, asked me out after responding to an ad on craigslist I put up. We hung out for a week before she asked for a date. We lasted 4 months until she left me.
For the first time I am dating around, and it feels a little good, and bad. I miss a good, solid, exclusive relationship. I miss having someone to love and to love me. I'm not sure what I want anymore, or what is better.
Exclusive, or dating around, I don't know which.
If you had read the original post, you would have known that gradually becoming exclusive - not because someone demanded it - over time is GOOD.
What's BAD is when exclusivity is demanded right from the start before you two have had time to get to know each other.
[QUOTE=shinji;259678][COLOR="blue">I never dated around before. I've only had two relationships.[/COLOR]
Two is good; more can be better.
[COLOR="blue">First girlfriend, she asked me out, and I said yes. Went 11 months before I realized she was cheating on me.[/COLOR]
Truth be told, and I know what you mean, however, you can not cheat on someone nor they on you--unless there is a contract.
Dating should be about going out with one or more people at a time, having fun, learning about each other, learning what you like and dislike in others, so that when Mr./Ms. Right does come along you will be better able to recognize the person.
[COLOR="blue">
Second girlfriend, asked me out after responding to an ad on craigslist I put up. We hung out for a week before she asked for a date. We lasted 4 months until she left me.[/COLOR]
The process of dating is transitory. Some dates will be one time events, others will last somewhat longer, others still will be long term; and eventually one will be a keeper.
For the first time I am dating around, and it feels a little good, and bad. I miss a good, solid, exclusive relationship. I miss having someone to love and to love me. I'm not sure what I want anymore, or what is better.
We do not need a solid, exclusive relationship, Sinji. What we need is to learn about others, and, to be available to others in order to someplace sometime to do something together. If you date one person, you can have exclusivity simply by the way you interact with each other--not by making a declaration and expecting both of you to hold to the agreement.
If you date two people at the same time, you are almost assured of a "yes" from one of them when you call and invite her out.
My point being, behave in the way you want your relationship to be, don't make it a "contract" of sorts by expecting exclusivity from each other. Behave like you are exclusive when the time is right.
[COLOR="blue">Exclusive, or dating around, I don't know which.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Asked and answered. You can have the best of both.
One of the first things that I noticed on this forum was the very definite opinions of DancingDoc, EvilEvilKitten and others regarding dating. Often their views are very different from what I have observed and experienced in my life, whereas for the most part I find myself nodding along with so much of what they have to say on other issues.
I’m wondering if there is a simple cultural difference at play. I am Australian and I can honestly say that the dating culture that is often talked about on this forum just didn’t exist in Australia when I was a teenager or in my early 20s.
Getting at least tipsy at a party, snogging someone you’d had your eye on and then wondering whether you’re ‘going out’ or not was pretty much the standard way things were done at high school. University was pretty much the same but you could replace ‘at least tipsy’ with ‘hideously drunk’ and ‘snog’ with ‘shag’. Classy! Dating was just not done – I actually think it would be a good practice for us to start doing. It seems a lot more civilised than what tends to happen here.
I didn’t actually go on a date as the first step in a courtship until I was 24. I had been on dates with people I was already at least a little involved with, but not as the first step to becoming involved. It’s just not really part of our culture, although it does seem to be slowly catching on.
Visiting Americans have commented on the lack of dating ‘rules’ in Australia and I can sympathise with them. Being asked on dates by Americans and Canadians when I was backpacking was absolutely delicious, although I suspect a few of them were surprised by how ‘easy’ I was. I’m not easy, I’m Australian, and our mores are different! Conversely one of my closest friends spent a year at UCLA and while she loved the dating culture, she was astounded by the attitude to sex. Grinding and virtually pole-dancing with several boys at a frat party before giving one a blow job in a secluded corner of the room was fine as long as you were a virgin, but having regular sex with the one guy was sluttish because it meant you weren't virgin (they were between 18 and 20). The girls in her dorm viewed her behaviour as a delightful cultural difference, but she’s pretty sure if she hadn’t been foreign she’d have been bullied as the dorm slut.
Just my two cents :)
It just seems that we are more relaxed and laid back than other cultures,and it seems to me that we also seem to pick the person that we want to be with on a longterm basis,rather than run around with every "tom,dick and harry".Although in my early 20's i snogged every guy that showed an interest in me without sleeping with them.I guess i would have been a "cocktease".At 23 i lost my virginity on a blind date a work colleague set me up with.The chemistry was so strong that we had sex the night we met,and continued seeing each other off and on for the next 6 months.When i married at 26 i was faithful to my husband for the almost 8yrs we were together,and for the next 9yrs of separation until recently when i had a brief relationship with an aquaintance i had known for the last 10yrs.I'm back to occasional sex with my husband again.
The concept of a girl being 'easy' or a 'slut' is repugnant.
We all should erase such silly ideas from our minds.
Instead, consider her warm, generous, happy, sharing and fun.
and as you know I have no reverence for virgins or virginity since I regard it as ignorance being lauded and females being more valued for what lies between their legs (hymen) than for the content of their character, minds, hearts and souls.
Agreed EEK, my friends and I call it 'slut-shaming' and we stomp on it whenever we see or hear it. I don't think I was condoning it or buying into it in my post and if I did appear to, oops.
But it just seems that if a girl goes from one guy to another searching for the right one to settle down with that she has loose morals,but if a guy does it he's sowing his wild oats.Why the double standards?:confused:
Why?
She might compare him to other guys and find him wanting.
With the luck I have had in terms of relationships, I would love to take the FWB route and not get emotionally attached. Take the best parts of the relationship (someone to talk to, having fun) and take out the emotional bs. I can't hold a long term relationship to save my skinny white arse.
This is a really long topic to read fully through but I managed it.
Anyway I've read all the opinions posted here-in and some I agree with some I don't.
I think the only way I can accept or condone dating around is if and only if it is clear to both parties what is or is not intended.
My issue is this, as idealistic and unreal it is to assume you will stumble upon Mrs. or Mr. right as if by magic, it is also completely unrealistic and completely fairytale to assume that people will be open and honest about what they want and what they are about. Fine if you want to date/sleep around then that's OK, but for me it would have to be with both parties knowing that it was that, I guess a declaration of none exclusivity. But too many people are players as opposed to daters.
For example, I'm not sure I would consider Doc or EEK to be players, they may be daters, but they seem to be open and honest about what they are about. In my books there is a huge difference between the two. Players are about deceiving and being completely selfish and manipulating people.
I guess I didn't realise there was a difference between dating around and playing until I read this.
What are peoples opinions on this difference?
I know Doc has mentioned that no contract is signed so I guess you can assume that there is no exclusivity, but lets be honest, that's as fickle as expecting the right person to knock on your door and say here I am lets live our lives together.
But then it's fickle to think that everyone is going to be open. The only difference is this, you have control over your own openness so you can turn round to a person and say, I'm testing the water or I'm in for life, and then probe their honesty. Yourself saying what you mean is better than just keeping quiet though I think. But then again, some people can't take that either.
Conclusion, any approach is fickle in some regards because people are just not the same. Which leaves me wondering, where does that leave us.
Personally, and this is something I definitely need to work on in myself, not saying something is worse than saying something, weigh your priorities, e.g. dating co-workers may be fun till you lose your job because of a messy breakup, go out and sample the field.
I guess the final question is, how do you sample the field in a way that doesn't involve booze, nightclubs or generally just getting pissed (maybe I am too fresh out of University and watching everyone go out get trashed and then get laid to see any other way). But there have to be other ways that also don't hold just one way tickets to I'm your best friend dead end scenarios.
You yourself being open and honest in itself will demand others be open and honest in their dealings with you. Simply being who and what you are will cause those UNLIKE you or NOT INTO you to stay away from you.
Because life is easier that way.
The fact that you "date around" indicates that you are not possessive and that you will not tolerate possessive lovers. It sounds too simple and too easy but - strangely enough - it really is how it works.
You see a tall good-looking woman dressed all in black and wearing stiletto heels and she has a certain 'dangerous allure' to her. You two make eye contact, she winks at you then looks away. Do you approach her and say hi or do you not?
See? By her presentation you already know certain things about her and you base your 'make a move or not' decision upon what you have learned.
Just pay attention. If you're into dangerous women with a lively sense of humor, you will approach her. If you're not into such women, you will pass her by.
Simple. Easy.
Just pay attention.
BTW - the trick with nightclubs is to have one to two but no more drinks when you first get there and to sober up by talking, circulating and dancing for the rest of the night while keeping a look out for women employing the same strategy. Ask every woman who wants to dance to dance but make no promises. (Whether you dance well or not is NOT the point. The point is you're getting women one-on-one where they have to pay attention to you.)
You then return home sober, well exercised with a couple of ladies' phone numbers.
HA it sounds simple when I read it, which makes me wonder, why on earth didn't I twig that? good advice. To be honest the thought of myself dating around is pretty daunting, but, I've read what you and doc have to say along with many others here and it's just one of those, get over yourself things and learning the difference between sex and love and that dating doesn't go straight to sex or love. Guess it had to happen one day.
And now you know what the bad boys have known all along without needing to be told.
None of this information is anything new. Epicurus was writing about how to be happy in 350 BCE for heaven's sake!
You people need to get out more.
Can't argue there. Getting out more definitely sounds like a good idea. Time to find a club of some kind.
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