Good point Sera, particularly for looking at the middle class. I might point out though that even so, for many of the poor even though they don't have to pay taxes they still can't afford basic necessities on their own.

Also, interesting tidbit for you. I assisted one of my professors with some of her research last year and some of the information I was looking at had to do with cheating on income taxes. There is a huge disparity between what is supposed to be paid and what is ACTUALLY paid every year. And its the upper class that is responsible for the highest percentage of individuals filing incorrect reports. There is a good article published recently about this in more detail though http://extremeinequality.org/?p=88 I do think the source is important to consider if you read through, I'd say take with a grain of salt, however from the research I looked at I would say their statistics are accurate. Points are made that are worth thinking about anyway.

While I don't disagree with your opinion on how America views sex..I would say that its not really the main issue that these articles seem to represent. However, this is also something I've been thinking about recently so maybe it just jumps out at me as being such.

In the first article, on top of the whole "vaccinations leading to promiscuity" bullshit arguement..we've also got the concerns of politicians in cahoots with pharmaceutical companies, and of pharmaceutical companies not having the best of intentions when it comes to their products. In the second article..we've got nursing home management afraid of letting their elderly folk have sex, not out of moral opposition, but because they are afraid of being sued!? now really..

To me the real issue here is how completely obsessed this nation is with protecting ourselves from EVERYTHING. Yet then we go about doing so in the most backwards way possible.

We don't want our kids to have sex because they *might* end up getting pregnant, getting a desease, having their poor little hearts broken by the 15 year old boy who doesn't "really, really, love" them, or god forbid, actually enjoy having sex and doing it MORE!!!! So we don't teach them anything about it, make sure that they don't have access to various forms of protection so that they "won't be tempted", then use scare tactics to keep them from doing it (i.e. "you'll burn in hell for doing that before marriage" and "you'll die and get pregnant just from doing it once" (yeah, because you won't let me have a condom and birth control, even though I'm going to do it anyway, thanks parental units). Yes, sounds like we're effectively keeping our kids safe there.

We want to protect ourselves from "Freedom-and-God-hating terrorists", so we go bomb the hell out of a few places that the average American can't even find on a map, and then say that the thousands of lives lost were necessary?

We are so protection-obsessed that we even prepare for it in advance, knowing that if we don't provide clear warning signs, have very specific contracts written up, make tons of ridiculous and right-infringing rules to prevent anything bad from happening, our asses are going to get sued by some moron who spills hot coffee on themselves and then wants someone else to pay because they got hurt.

We are so worried that someone elses "bad" sense of morality is going to somehow cause us harm that we push for government intervention into matters that should really be up to the individual according to their own personal beliefs.

Its why we have the religious right, so damn bound and determined to "save" the rest of the country that they completely ignore the whole concept of separation of church and state that this nation was founded on.

Its also why, rather than letting the free market run its course and failing corporations to die off, we insist on a government funded bail-out. God forbid that people lose their jobs, nevermind that they are working for grossely irresponsible businesses that need to be knocked down a couple pegs and restructured from the ground up so that they might actually function in the they were originally created to, a way that is useful to society and not just their top executives, a way that doesn't cause them to have to fire half their employees because they didn't run their business effeciently. Yes, I am suggesting that big business suffers *gasp* the same way that small business does every day. But no, we've got to PROTECT OUR GIANTS! because doing so means protecting the American Way!

Our kids aren't allowed to play dodgeball on the playground anymore because they *might* get hurt (banned games vary by location of course..take your pick, its probably not allowed somewhere). We constantly sanitize so that they won't get the sniffles, even though in the long run it is lowering our ability to fight off infection naturally as a species and is creating super viruses that we DON'T have medicine for. I remember summers at my grandparent's house when I'd drop a lollipop on the ground and my grandmother would say "no, you don't need a new one..a little dirt never killed anyone" Try that now with a kid that isn't your own, or even if it is your own, oh dear the drama that ensues. Kids have so many allergies that you can no longer bring in homemade cookies to your kids class on their birthday. Crappy store bought it is, how fun and exciting. We fail to recognize that a mild allergy discovered at a young age, can in fact be overcome by regular exposure on a very small scale at first, and then increased gradually. but no, we don't want little junior to have a little rash for a couple days. We'd rather have him be rushed to the hospital and nearly die in the 5th grade when he eats one of those peanut laced homemade cupcakes his buddy's mom brought in to class for buddy's birthday.

It is this preoccupation with safety in all areas of our lives that really bothers me. I see a future that is something like The Giver, if anyone else read that book back in Middle School..if it wasn't banned that is.

That turned into much more of a rant than I intended.

Good articles though, WSO. :)

Raez - okay so you let Huge Corp go out of business. Let's see what the possible impacts might be:

1. YOUR pension, although you're NOT working for Huge Corp, decreases in value because your company invested in Huge Corp. This also applies to any outside IRAs, investments you may have that have also invested in Huge Corp. Increased chance that you may need to rely upon gov handouts to survive.

2. If Huge Corp is in a "one company town" that's another town that dies off and/or becomes a poverty area relying upon gov handouts to subsist.

3. Retired Huge Corp workers lose their pensions and need further gov handouts to stay alive.

4. Other companies that used products/services from or supplied products/services to Huge Corp are also now affected and their workers and retirees are also hit as are their suppliers & customers as well. Possible need for gov handouts to develop.

You simply have got to learn that the financial/business world is now so interconnected that letting any company of a certain size and importance go out of business "just to get your own back" is NOT WORTH IT to anyone.

Case in point - oil prices soar above $4 a gallon. Tell me what ISN'T affected by that?

Injudicous deregulation, the housing bubble bursting, and the recently past rampant speculation in oil is what drove us to where we, and the rest of the world, are right now. The sharks saw an opportunity for a kill and they went for it, as they will. The government let the sharks have a feeding frenzy - so now the government has to pay for it. If you voted for deregulation - you got what you voted for - congrats.

More on topic:

America is NOT the ONLY nation that has "hang-ups" about sex - or did the entire concept of honor killings some how escape your notice.

"she was dating someone not approved by her parents so they killed her, stuffed her into a suitcase and buried her in the back yard" - that was in England.

"she was interpreting in Iraq for a children's humanitarian organization but seemed too friendly to the British soldiers so her father killed her, broke her mother's arm when the mother protested and fought for her daughter's life. Police there refuse to prosecute."

"young thugs would go to the market and buy acid. They'd tell a girl's father 'give her to me or else' (and not in marriage). If he refused or she refused they'd throw the acid in her face making her unmarriagable thereafter. If they let him have her, she became unmarriagable as he raped her and tossed her aside." - from an embassy worker in the region

STOP thinking it is "just our" problem.

Yes, I fully understand how everything that big corp A does impacts the rest of our economy as a whole. I am well aware, I didn't major in Economics for nothing. You haven't told me anything I didn't already know. I did perhaps underplay that whole point though in order to make my case for a whole separate topic, not wanting to delve into this whole business..but since you make a big deal of it..here we go.

Where my problem lies is, knowing that we NEED our huge corporations to stick around and to function in a profitable and efficient way... why is nothing done to make sure they do so until the last minute, when we are in the position we are in now. And the solution is to write a check? And we expect these companies to use this check in a responsible way when they haven't been doing so with the last few millions of profit they've earned? This proverbial monetary band-aid isn't much better of a solution than those government stimulus checks that were handed out. The problem is that we don't think enough in the long-term with these things. Yeah, it would suck to just allow some of these corps to go under. Maybe if someone had of kept an eye on them and the various other things that are going wrong in our economy and actually said "hey look, this needs to change before we totally fuck ourselves" early on, I would in no way suggest that we let some of these business go down. And really, I'm not even saying that we should actually let these businesses go under. No, at this point it wouldn't be the most helpful thing to do, fairly damaging in fact. What I am saying though, is that some of these corporations are in need of a huge wake up call, some serious restructuring, and maybe just a little bit of heart. Try acting in a way that shows they care a little bit about their lower level employees livelihoods, and not jsut the top executives. Sorry, but I also just have a tiny moral dilemma with companies saying they need to lay off a large percentage of their employees, when their top executives are *taking a pay cut* yet are still making more in 2 months than the average american makes in a year. From a moral standpoint, I'd rather the payouts go to people that are going to be losing their pensions, to the poverty stricken areas, and on and on. However, that is entirely impractical and would cost a whole lot more, so its not the economically viable solution. Yet I don't think the solutions that have been enacted so far are that much better. It really comes down to this nation not being able to think in the long term whatsoever.. we are greedy and say "more more more, now now now" rather than acting in a way that may be less profitable now, but will save a whole lot of frustration, money and insecurity later.

I never voted against deregulation. I just love how people are so opposed to government intervention, yet then who do they go crying to when theings start going down the shitter? I'm for a fine balance between government intervention and the free market. It is stupid to think that on this large of a scale the free market alone will allow America to have the same average standard of living we have now. If you think the middle class is disappearing now..just wait.

However I do have serious issues with being able to reconcile ecomonics and my own morality. Basically in economics the morality is aligned with whatever creates the most aggregate good is what is right. Which generally speaking I can agree with... but in some cases it's not that cut and dry. Sometimes the financial costs are much less than the social costs...it lacks an appeal to our sense of humanity. Which I guess is why 3 classes from graduation I decided to switch my major from Econ to Art.

Yes, free market capitalism is boom and bust with dead bodies littering the landscape for the aggregate benefit of the greatest number. However, trying to reconcile that with the value of the individual, which is one of our (American) ethics - and a good one, is difficult. This is essentially why we do NOT have entirely free market capitalism. Nor should we. Two steps forward and one step back doesn't get a nation very far. Besides which cleaning up all of those dead bodies is a drag!

IF you're feeling guilty about all that money you're making - you can always donate to your favorite charity - so no whining.

I agree with you wholly there.

I'm wondering though who you are refering to as feeling guilty about all the money they are making? I certainly don't..I wish I did make enough to feel guilty about it, because I'd have no problem giving some of it away to help support my fellow human beings who are less fortuanate than I. However at this point in time, between paying to finish up my degree and living expenses, not much left over from my waitressing salary to spend on charity (and before you say, waitresses can make a killing..I work for a small family owned restaurant that while delicious, is kind of a hole in the wall. Doesn't get as much business as your local applebee's). I eat a lot of Ramen. I do however volunteer my TIME and the other day I did manage to have enough extra cash this month to buy a few good kids books to donate to one of the hospitals pediatrics ward. You would think that if someone like me could afford to give a little back, the multimillionaires would oh I don't know..help feed the poor for a month instead of buying their 3rd SUV...but maybe thats just me. I'm sure they really really need that car.

LOL

Nevermind! (yes, I give to charity - to kids' charities)

Yes, America is not the only country that has its hang-ups about sex.

Actually, after having seen/heard/heard about how women are treated elsewhere - it is America for me. They'd shoot me almost anywhere else!

and I'm NOT kidding.

lol sorry Wet, I didn't mean to highjack your thread... its just my indignation sometimes gets the better of me ...do forgive me pretty please :o

lol, I could only assume that you are one of those benevolent type folks with your prosperity EEK. Despite your "brick over the head" therapy methods lol

and sadly enough you are right, I wish that all women could have the freedom to hold, and actually did hold when given that freedom, the ideals you keep toward sex and women's sexuality. Perhaps one day...

[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;229319] it is America for me. They'd shoot me almost anywhere else![/QUOTE]

Or maybe worse. Not kidding.

NO, they'd have nothing more to do with me because I would damage them severely. So, to save themselves effort and harm, they'd just shoot me out of hand.

Yes, I am charitable. As to my methods of therapy - yes, well, sometimes stronger methods are required. *Evil Grin*

I actually have enjoyed your debating over the topic of the economy! EEK & Raez. I know it's off topic; however, the combined exertion of both's efforts is compelling just in reading--with an appreciation to both sides posed in the argument.

WSO-I doubt you cared since you enjoy the mind part...

Raez-Despite the individuals income & finances; you will find that saliently many do give substantial portions of their income/wealth to charity. In the end of life; there are economic pro's to donating ones estate to charitable foundations, or building one, so the finances do not all pour out the states.

However, realize when tough economic crisis occurs such as we are seeing; when all [including the wealthy] loose their ability to make money [not talking about the top 1% in the US] they cannot offset government through giving the same quantities to the private sector of NGO's & end up with a "bloodbath" lost to government & corporate greed.

Many for go the third SUV and give to charity big time...children, education & education for women, pets, CA, etc...

Yes, there are more of the wealthy that are quite charitable than I tend to give credit to. and of course there are always pros and cons when deciding what to do with finances in any given situation. I just think its pretty terrible, all reason aside, that the top 10% of the American population owns something like 70% of the wealth, while the bottom 40% only owns something like 2%? maybe less? It's just sad to me that some people can live like kings, and even if they do give a considerable amount to charity, it doesn't really take much of a toll on their finances, yet there are people who still can't afford all the basic necessities of survival.

Well you can also look at it from another point of view; the top 2% pay 70% of all the taxes in the US...there is 40% of Americans in the middle class bracket who get away without paying their share of taxes unfairly. If not for the top; that would increase the base of taxes to be paid for the government by the middle class. The private sector donates through charity to offset gov't due to the lack of ability to deliver services.

So..how about that there Sex in America... lol sorry again Wet.

While the discrepancy is large in America regarding the distribution of wealth, it is not nearly as large as the majority of the rest of the countries of the world.

I'd like to see the Big 3 go bankrupt so that they are forced to restructure but the majority of the employees don't lose their health and retirement benefits. I believe that their failure lies in the upper level management and marketing divisions.

And as for the OP - Why so quick to take specific instances and generalize them to stand for the entire population of the most diverse country in the world? As EEK showed, everywhere in the world, throughout all of history, there have been sexual hangups.

burn! lol ;)

It is just that men feel 'cheated' in a way. They get to stand up and urinate but women get multiple orgasms. LOTS of multiple orgasms!!!

Sexual hang-ups are all over...the thoughts of sexual interest fall within the influences of our upbringing.

I don't doubt the IRS filing forms since they do get long; however, that's why many pay good CPA's to file correctly. Tax laws are to be taken seriously!

Distribution of wealth or redistribution of wealth? Well, I assume many have opinions on it; meanwhile, I believe much has to do with how one has gained wealth...made the old fashioned way through plenty of hard work? I have an issue with the government telling me I need to spread it since that's why the private sector exists. It's only a mild tax benefit the majority receive for giving up 50% of their earned, laborious income.

Ripping off the US through working as a CEO for 13 days? I have a major issue with. And I do agree with re-structuring and having a good financial plan to become solvent in the future before one climbs off their corporate jet asking for funding while receiving obscene compensations.

Much has to do with the individuals perception of financial responsibility & the inner, altruistic inclinations...give from the heart & you will always reap a reward--a giant smile inside. Appropriate tax filings are a must!

With some hope the US will change for the positive!

Since I qualify as a business owner with hirelings, I will state that it is MY preference, and priviledge, to pay a living wage over and above the average for my area for these specific jobs. I also provide everything they need to do their jobs re: computers, training, licensing, a clear chain of command, a precise job description, a happy work environment, and a clear career path with defined performance criteria. And I pay my taxes without a peep. Charity begins with yourself and how YOU run your home and your business(es).

This is contrary to standard in my industry. The usual method is to have hirelings pay half and half for being hired, licensed & trained. Then hirelings are paid strictly on a commission basis. The pressure is counter-productive. The work schedule is killing. Your family life is heavily stressed. And the system is all too good at creating opportunities for malfeance and error. By removing these nagetaives, I keep my people "clean", happy, unstressed, and PRODUCTIVE. They are able to keep their minds on their work and not worrying about whether they can pay their bills or not. Using positive reinforcements rather than negative reinforcements to guide behavior.

You do NOT get responsible employees by being an irresponsible employer.

Very good points and good for you EEK...there is hope for the business world yet!.. and you may be glad to know that this concept of happy employees = good employees is I think going to become a more standard practice as the younger generation starts making its way into business ownership and upper level management. At least that is my hypothesis, based on what is taught in any good management class these days. This was a point that was stressed to me not only in several of my management classes but also in Organizational Psych. Lots of new studies have been done in recent years to show that it really is the best method from a business standpoint, the fact that its also altruistic is just an added bonus. Even the greedy bastard who is only out to make huge profit for themselves should realize that pleasing ALL their employees will be of the most benefit to this goal in the long run.

That's the difference w/you EEK, you demonstrate good business ethics. Often many do not any longer regardless of the area of business. I believe as you pay for performance, keep employees happy, provide them with needed tools, and you have a good & eager employee.

Over the past say 15 years; I have watched the decomposition of corporate ethics & have been appalled. This was most unfortunate since it left many "job hopping" rather then wishing to stay with an employer.

Hey, if I could, I'd provide housing and transport too but there's only so much one evil woman can afford to do. So, I do what I can.

People want to work! Why not let them?

Huzzah for ethics in business!

I don't disagree; there are people who want good work & employers. Good employers should wish for good employees. Years ago there was ethics in the major business models; exemplified through various older company's. Approximately, 15-20 years ago the common loyalty [between employee & employer] was destroyed...in time I do hope the workforce & employers return to what was...One prime example was IBM. So many years ago employment was generational and it was lost.

[QUOTE=sera300;229369]I actually have enjoyed your debating over the topic of the economy! EEK & Raez. I know it's off topic; however, the combined exertion of both's efforts is compelling just in reading--with an appreciation to both sides posed in the argument.

WSO-I doubt you cared since you enjoy the mind part...

Raez-Despite the individuals income & finances; you will find that saliently many do give substantial portions of their income/wealth to charity. In the end of life; there are economic pro's to donating ones estate to charitable foundations, or building one, so the finances do not all pour out the states.

However, realize when tough economic crisis occurs such as we are seeing; when all [including the wealthy] loose their ability to make money [not talking about the top 1% in the US] they cannot offset government through giving the same quantities to the private sector of NGO's & end up with a "bloodbath" lost to government & corporate greed.

Many for go the third SUV and give to charity big time...children, education & education for women, pets, CA, etc...[/QUOTE]

Alternative energy sources are, I think,
and there is that direction which will deduce the world from crisis.
The epoch of oil and gas monopolies will end.

also on EEK posts on what happens when they go bust, you can bet crime probally increases in those areas dut to people not have jobs/