New advice request

[SadisticLullaby]

So I have a rather interesting situation going for me right now. And sometimes I just find it easier to make up my own decisions from opinions from other people. That's why I'm here, after all.

I've been seeing this guy for a little while now, but the term "seeing" should be taken loosely. We're both from the same place which is how we met but he lives in another state and was only visiting. We met through a mutual friend and started talking since then and so even when we haven't gotten to physically see each other we've spent hours upon hours of talking every day since we've met. It's basically like going on a date and getting to know each other without sitting face to face. We get along incredibly well and we know things would work between us in a relationship and we both want one. The distance can be handled eventually and I have no issues with long-distance relationships, but here's where it gets messy. He's still going through the divorce process with his wife. They're separated right now but because they don't have the money to just go through with the actually finality of things, that makes them... well, still technically married. And I'll say now, that if he were the one initially pushing for the divorce there's no way we would have been talking in the first place. But his wife is always going out and sleeping around while this guy, my guy, whatever -- let's call him 'A' -- is home, usually talking to me, and taking care of his son. So 1) going through a divorce, 2) has a two-year-old kid, 3) lives in a different state.

I know some people might have red lights going off now, dealing with the whole "you'll just be his rebound", "you shouldn't do anything until the divorce is over", et cetera. But this will be hopefully the one place I'll be a little defensive. This man is, for me, one of those "too good to be true" scenarios. And while I'm usually a cynic and pessimist, I find myself being terribly optimistic because 'A' is "true-blue", so to speak. He's very real with me and has no reason to lie to me and I him. We were friends first before I actually admit to having feelings that reciprocated his own. So what I need advice for is that, after all of our talking, he's finally coming back down to my state for the sole purpose to visit me for a week. And I'm not one to "give it up" easily or soon into a relationship, but part of me is wondering if while he's here we shouldn't just go ahead and have sex or attempt to have sex to see if our chemistry is as good physically as it is mentally and emotionally. I mean, since we are wanting this relationship to work out, it isn't like we wouldn't have plenty of other opportunities, but is there really a "best time" for these things? Which direction does the scale tip between holding off on sex and getting more emotionally attached just to find things really don't work in the bedroom?

So based off of the information I've provided you guys so far, any answers and opinions to my questions? All help and/or general ideas are appreciated.

Thank you.

~Lullaby

[Rouge]

I would definitely wait until the divorce is over to have sex. Talking and building a relationship around the person is good, but there are a lot of things going through his head that can make him a little unstable to be with sexually. Give him a chance to let the dust settle before jumping in, or he could close the door on you along with his wife. Keep talking and help him through the process, however, and he'll remember that you were there for him.

Sex can muddy the water in a lot of situations, and in this one he needs the water to be clear to keep moving forward.

[lnt1103]

I have to agree. ESPECIALLY if he wasn't the one who asked for the divorce. He will have grieving to do, and attempting to have another relationship at the same time will just make matters worse. His heart has been bruised, and he needs time to let it get better before he uses the muscle again.

[dancingdoc2]

Welcome to the SI101 Board and its Forums. I hope you enjoy participating. Please begin by familiarizing yourself with the FAQs, the Posting Guidelines section, and especially the Index, all found at the top of the main screen. The Index contains links to helpful informative insightful, as well as how-to articles that discuss the most common concerns people ask about. In addition, clicking on the site's Home page will bring you even more information.

> We met through a mutual friend and started talking since then and so even when we haven't gotten to physically see each other we've spent hours upon hours of talking every day since we've met. It's basically like going on a date and getting to know each other without sitting face to face.

Meeting via a mutual friend is one of the best ways to find a potential mate.
Spending hours upon hours talking every day is not unusual during the "honeymoon" stage of a relationship; however, eventually you'll have to become more "real" (realistic) about the time you do spend talking. It is also good that you've met each other before beginning a long distance relationship because you have done some initial evaluation of each other and not started making a relationship out of anything more substantial that cyber-vapor.

> He's still going through the divorce process with his wife. They're separated right now but because they don't have the money to just go through with the actually finality of things, that makes them... well, still technically married.

> I know some people might have red lights going off now, dealing with the whole "you'll just be his rebound", "you shouldn't do anything until the divorce is over", et cetera. But this will be hopefully the one place I'll be a little defensive.

You can be defensive; yet you cannot argue with the statistics and reality that men and women coming out of a separation, divorce, or, death, need time to become one with themselves, again. This process can take several months to a couple of years depending upon the length of the prior relationship. Circumventing the process can work, yet more often than not does not. There needs to be some time for healing and acquiring a new perspective of one's self, again.

This is not unlike being a teenager and thinking you are all grown up at sixteen just because you've gone thru puberty and can make a baby. There is a reason the teen years are a decade long! The process of transforming a child into an adult and developing maturity takes that long. A young adult at 21 is a far different person than at 18, 16, 14, or the week after emerging from puberty! During the years following, there are social, developmental, and maturing stages each of us must go thru. A person emerging as an individual from a previous relationship also has stages of healing and development that take time to accomplish.

Rebound relationships can help the process along, yet the foundation for the new relationship is not yet on stable ground. If you believe this is the man for you, give the process time to complete itself. This is far different than switching girl- boyfriends during the dating process--or, switching cars. Being defensive won't make the process work any better.

> because they don't have the money to just go through with the actually finality of things, that makes them... well, still technically married.

If the couple cannot acquire the funding to divide the marriage assets and meet the legal requirements to end the marriage AND then to reestablish two separate households, then in all reality, there will be little funding for your new relationship that also requires child support and perhaps spousal support depending upon the state and circumstances. It is important for everybody in this situation to understand that if the man makes a lot of money, life will be less abundant with the new wife than before in most cases. If the income is much less as is often the case, then what is left over will probably mean having a smaller home, older cars, less of the things you need or desire.

Now, add the fact that one or the other of you will eventually move, means finding a new job and the way things are now, this can be difficult at best and impossible at its worst. Have you thought about this and discussed the matter? Can you live on one income? Whose? What if after moving you or he cannot find new employment? For more on this, please read the article in the Index on moving in together.

> I'll say now, that if he were the one initially pushing for the divorce there's no way we would have been talking in the first place. But his wife is always going out and sleeping around while this guy, my guy, whatever -- let's call him 'A' -- is home, usually talking to me, and taking care of his son. So 1) going through a divorce, 2) has a two-year-old kid, 3) lives in a different state.

In my view it does not much matter who initiates the divorce process. What matters is why and what they have done, first, to make certain that this is the best course of action. In your example, the wife is out carousing around, so if the husband initiates the divorce you will find fault with him? I don't understand why you have this idealistic and unrealistic belief about fault or blame.

What if after several years the couple drifts apart, have no common interests, and after working to see what could be done to save the marriage, decide to divorce--and, he initiates the process. How can you find fault with this? It does not matter who starts the legal process. What matters is that they have done what they can to get to a point where they can say we've done what we can and it is not working and there is no reason to continue. In other words: there is no unfinished "business".

The upcoming visit is great! Get to know each other better in the real world and observe him in different social situations. Talking on the phone is not sufficient means to learn how he acts and behaves with you out in public or when home alone. You need real-world hands on experience--and, this is why people date.

Next step: who is going to move and find a new job? What is the contingency plan for continuing to date if after making the move you or he cannot get reestablished?

Sex? Very often this complicates the budding relationship needlessly. Hold off on this until you have established lots of hand-in-hand time together after moving. Kiss, cuddle, fool around and make out all you want but draw the line at foreplay and intercourse for the foreseeable future.

While a couple can enjoy sex for sex sake, I believe it is much more important to acquire the "chemicals" first before mixing them together. In other words, you need real world involvement with each other. Telephone conversations can solidify a relationship and keep it vital, yet by themselves, cannot build a firm solid foundation from nothing. Science has progressed a lot recently; now we finally have a practical videophone that lets us see the person we are talking with. Until you live in the same community, I recommend that you invest in the equipment and one of these services in order to bring the two of closer together. It seems to me to be a practical and necessary intermediate step until you can get to the hand-in-hand stage.


So, get together as often as you can and go on actual dates and determine whether your respective characters, characteristics, likes, dislikes, goals, ideals, whims, objectives, values, morals, manners, mannerisms, are a common fit.

Because making love is just that--and as an outward expression of the feelings two people have for each other, the best time would be after the two of you have gone on actual dates for several months and have made the commitment to live closer together as in the same town, first. Here is another article to read, regarding your concern about "chemistry" and compatibility:

Chapter Five (also has its own separate link):
HELP! S/He is more EXPERIENCED! To which I say:

I hope this is of help. Got questions?

[tntitans21399]

#1. One good advice about people coming out of a serious relationship is they actually aren't themself until after a year or so after the end of the relationship. They might be over the relationship in their mind but subconsciously they are different. Even if it is their fault or the other ones fault,they might subconsciously think they should have done something different. Like for this guy, he might think was their something that he wasn't doing that made his wife go out and cheat. He might be a great guy and the wife is bad, but a lot of times someone goes outside and cheats because they aren't getting what they need at home (physically or emotionally).

#2. Divorce can be messy and that is a lot of drama you can be pulled into rather you like it or not if they aren't legally together. Usually a lot of times it is to fight for the house or custody of kid(s).

#3. Right now you are just a friend, if all else more of a PenPal. You are their during his time of need. What happens if he starts feeling better (emotional) will he start to do whatever that might have drove his wife to cheat?

#4. He does have a son, that is a individual subject if you want to walk into that situation. Some people don't want that, other don't care, and some open it with open arms. But you do have to realize it wont just be a boyfriend if you walk in but you will be a little like a parent because he will have son around at times.

#5. Long distance relationships dont sound to hard at first, but it is very very hard to make work. Mainly because the best part of a relationship is seeing and touching (not just sexually) but like holding (cuddling) and being close to someone. With out that they are more just a friend. Also not seeing someone for a while you do lose some of that spark, while people you see everyday you form a bond with. So as you live your life at one place and he does his things in another then you lose those bonds and stories you could have together.

#6. You also dont want to rush into anything because you might be overlooking something. Maybe it is a short term crush or anything like that.

i wish the best of ryou, but just remember to walk in lightly and try to see it from every angle and not tunnel vision.

[SadisticLullaby]

> I would definitely wait until the divorce is over to have sex. Talking and building a relationship around the person is good, but there are a lot of things going through his head that can make him a little unstable to be with sexually. Give him a chance to let the dust settle before jumping in, or he could close the door on you along with his wife. Keep talking and help him through the process, however, and he'll remember that you were there for him.

Not that you intended this, but the way you said "jumping in" sounded like I was the one more eager for intercourse. I'm not offended, it was just an observation. But in all actuality, he was the one who brought it up. And after reading other articles, especially for younger new relationships, I've read repeatedly that if you have to ask "Am I ready?" the answer is undoubtedly "No". 'A' asked about sex and while I would love to be with him intimately like that, I guess the reason my first response was a "no" was because if we really want this relationship to work then, like I said, there will be other opportunities, right? Thank you for your input. (:

> I have to agree. ESPECIALLY if he wasn't the one who asked for the divorce. He will have grieving to do, and attempting to have another relationship at the same time will just make matters worse. His heart has been bruised, and he needs time to let it get better before he uses the muscle again.

I fully agree with you. I think he has a lot to heal from, but the grieving? Considering things have been over for six months and he's actually found it in himself to be ready to talk to other women, or me rather, with the intent on having a relationship, I think the grieving is passed. I know his wife will always be a part of his life, there's no doubt about that, and he will probably always care about her, there is no love between them anymore. Thank you for your input as well. (:

[SadisticLullaby]

> Welcome to the SI101 Board and its Forums. I hope you enjoy participating. Please begin by familiarizing yourself with the FAQs, the Posting Guidelines section, and especially the Index, all found at the top of the main screen. The Index contains links to helpful informative insightful, as well as how-to articles that discuss the most common concerns people ask about. In addition, clicking on the site's Home page will bring you even more information.

Thank you for the welcome. This actually isn't my first time to the boards or even to register. It's been a few years, though. But it's nice to see you're still around and being as courteous and helpful as ever, doc.

> Meeting via a mutual friend is one of the best ways to find a potential mate. Spending hours upon hours talking every day is not unusual during the "honeymoon" stage of a relationship; however, eventually you'll have to become more "real" (realistic) about the time you do spend talking.

I agree here as well that we'll have to become more realistic about the phone calls, but for right now since there's free time we've found no harm in all the conversation.

>You can be defensive; yet you cannot argue with the statistics and reality that men and women coming out of a separation, divorce, or, death, need time to become one with themselves, again.

> Rebound relationships can help the process along, yet the foundation for the new relationship is not yet on stable ground. If you believe this is the man for you, give the process time to complete itself. This is far different than switching girl- boyfriends during the dating process--or, switching cars. Being defensive won't make the process work any better.

I cannot argue with the statistics, nor would I want to. My relationship before this one lasted for four years and we were intending marriage. Obviously things didn't work out and I know it took me a very long time to be able to function again or even look at someone of the opposite sex without aching, so I am completely understand to A's need for time and space and healing and I'm also agreeing to be there with him along the way because neither of us are looking for a "rebound" relationship. Yes, I think we could both emotionally rebound from the hurt we've endured, but we're not looking for a fling by any means.

> If the couple cannot acquire the funding to divide the marriage assets and meet the legal requirements to end the marriage AND then to reestablish two separate households, then in all reality, there will be little funding for your new relationship that also requires child support and perhaps spousal support depending upon the state and circumstances. It is important for everybody in this situation to understand that if the man makes a lot of money, life will be less abundant with the new wife than before in most cases. If the income is much less as is often the case, then what is left over will probably mean having a smaller home, older cars, less of the things you need or desire.

I've accepted the truth that there will not be as much money, but that doesn't bother me. Neither of us need a life of luxury and I personally don't desire one. SOME luxuries, yes, will be wanted, but not the lifestyle. As for child support, that wouldn't be an issue considering he would get full custody, but I know taking care of a child will be more costly than just paying support money. But people manage all the time and we could too. But that probably won't be for a while. I believe in a substantial amount of dating before committing to anything so major as living together or even considering a marriage. Neither of us are ready for that at this point.

> Now, add the fact that one or the other of you will eventually move, means finding a new job and the way things are now, this can be difficult at best and impossible at its worst. Have you thought about this and discussed the matter? Can you live on one income? Whose? What if after moving you or he cannot find new employment? For more on this, please read the article in the Index on moving in together.

This is probably a ways off as well. And we've discussed it, yes, and seeing as I would be the one more willing to move to him because my preferred work is more north than I am, I would be the one looking for a job. But it is possible for both of us -- all three of us including his son -- to live on his income alone. Not for forever, but I'm fairly optimistic there'd be plenty of time for me to find a job before it became a pressing issue.

> In my view it does not much matter who initiates the divorce process. What matters is why and what they have done, first, to make certain that this is the best course of action. In your example, the wife is out carousing around, so if the husband initiates the divorce you will find fault with him? I don't understand why you have this idealistic and unrealistic belief about fault or blame.

> What if after several years the couple drifts apart, have no common interests, and after working to see what could be done to save the marriage, decide to divorce--and, he initiates the process. How can you find fault with this? It does not matter who starts the legal process. What matters is that they have done what they can to get to a point where they can say we've done what we can and it is not working and there is no reason to continue. In other words: there is no unfinished "business".

I'm sorry, I think I should have made that more clear. If he were the one pushing for the divorce because he was sleeping around, there's no chance the two of us would have been talking. It is a personal preference not to be around certain personalities and I wouldn't want to take the risk that that behavior could be repeated with me. No, I don't believe the idea that "once a cheater, always a cheater" and I know that it's entirely possible for someone who has never slept around on a partner to finally begin doing so when they're with me, but as I said, it's just a personal preference. I know it's all mental. Call it idealistic and unrealistic if you must, but everyone thinks in their own ways and most have a predisposition about certain behaviors and it seems I'm no different.

> Next step: who is going to move and find a new job? What is the contingency plan for continuing to date if after making the move you or he cannot get reestablished?

I've partially answered these questions already -- I would be the one to move. And if/when I do, it would be after multiple visits back and forth and we'll see where things go from there. Part of me is hesitant about cohabitation mostly because that will be a big change in itself besides moving, and I'm honestly not too worried about that right in this moment because we're still in the dating stages.

> Sex? Very often this complicates the budding relationship needlessly. Hold off on this until you have established lots of hand-in-hand time together after moving. Kiss, cuddle, fool around and make out all you want but draw the line at foreplay and intercourse for the foreseeable future.

This, I fully believe. I know sex had a strong impact on my previous relationship. But we are both human, so I believe there is always the possibility that while I might have the desire to draw the line, desires can become stronger and change into those "getting caught up in the moment" scenarios. If this does happen, what would be the wisest course of action?

> I hope this is of help. Got questions?

Yes, I believe you were very helpful and your post was very stimulating thought-wise. I think I might have asked one other question, but feel free to respond to anything else I might have said. Oh, and perhaps this is also a plus, but as opposed to him coming to visit me, I'll be the one going to visit him. I think this is a better idea seeing as I would be the one to move later on, right? Well at least that's the mind-set I'm going with. Haha. Thank you very, very much for the wonderful input, doc. (:

(Ran out of room to get all the replies in one post. Oops.)

[SadisticLullaby]

#1. One good advice about people coming out of a serious relationship is they actually aren't themself until after a year or so after the end of the relationship. They might be over the relationship in their mind but subconsciously they are different. Even if it is their fault or the other ones fault,they might subconsciously think they should have done something different. Like for this guy, he might think was their something that he wasn't doing that made his wife go out and cheat. He might be a great guy and the wife is bad, but a lot of times someone goes outside and cheats because they aren't getting what they need at home (physically or emotionally).

I believe it happens sometimes but not a lot of times. Why someone cheats can vary to all sorts of reasons. And of course the person will be different after the end of a relationship. I think it's impossible to remain completely unfazed by something like that; especially when that something is a marriage ending. It's a good point, though.

#2. Divorce can be messy and that is a lot of drama you can be pulled into rather you like it or not if they aren't legally together. Usually a lot of times it is to fight for the house or custody of kid(s).

Also a good point, but it's already been discussed and he would give the house to his wife, but there's no possibility that she would have custody of their son. I'm not going to go into all the details because I don't think it would be polite to share such intimate things here, but while most people might think "a judge wouldn't take a child away from their mother", think again. I suppose it's a poor way to think of things, but at this stage since we're not too involved, if things begin getting dramatic I can always just step back and away. This is also easier since we don't live in the same place. I can be there for him when he needs me, but if things reach a drama-level that I'm way too uncomfortable with then I can just back off for a little while.

#3. Right now you are just a friend, if all else more of a PenPal. You are their during his time of need. What happens if he starts feeling better (emotional) will he start to do whatever that might have drove his wife to cheat?

To say I am "just a friend", is incorrect. I might help him feel better, but there is still an emotional connection and the desire to form a stable bond well beyond friendship. And to say he "drove his wife to cheat", is also incorrect I feel. I don't think anyone is "driven" to cheat. We have free will. We have different needs. We make decisions for ourselves and we are capable of saying "yes" or "no" to situations. That's what I believe, anyways. She made the choice to sleep around, but that does not mean it was A's fault for her doing so.

#4. He does have a son, that is a individual subject if you want to walk into that situation. Some people don't want that, other don't care, and some open it with open arms. But you do have to realize it wont just be a boyfriend if you walk in but you will be a little like a parent because he will have son around at times.

I guess I would fall into the "open arms" category there, then. And I know they're a packaged deal and I wouldn't want it any other way. I've taken care of children for a long time. Since I was young. I know it's not the same as having a child of your own, but I know I wouldn't be completely helpless in this situation and I want B -- the letter I'll use for his son -- to be as much a part of my life as I want A to be.

#5. Long distance relationships dont sound to hard at first, but it is very very hard to make work. Mainly because the best part of a relationship is seeing and touching (not just sexually) but like holding (cuddling) and being close to someone. With out that they are more just a friend. Also not seeing someone for a while you do lose some of that spark, while people you see everyday you form a bond with. So as you live your life at one place and he does his things in another then you lose those bonds and stories you could have together.

The distance is still just temporary. I'm planning on moving from where I am now anyways, now I just have a more specific location to go to. I also think that "distance makes the heart grow fonder", and while long-distance relationships are hard, I think they're very doable. I think this will just be something that we will have to work out together and experience together. There's no one to say that things will or won't work, after all.

#6. You also dont want to rush into anything because you might be overlooking something. Maybe it is a short term crush or anything like that.

This is something that I guess we'll find out as well, but somehow I don't think it is. I don't feel that it is. And that's a lot coming from me when I'm usually such a pessimist. We're still learning about each other; anything that has possibly been overlooked now still has the potential to be uncovered.

i wish the best for you, but just remember to walk in lightly and try to see it from every angle and not tunnel vision.

Thank you, very much. You brought valid points to my attention. And I will try to remain open-minded about things. I apologize if my responses were a little defensive -- I had tried to keep from doing so. (:

[lnt1103]

Originally Posted by SadisticLullaby

I think he has a lot to heal from, but the grieving? Considering things have been over for six months and he's actually found it in himself to be ready to talk to other women, or me rather, with the intent on having a relationship, I think the grieving is passed.

I say grieving because that's part of the process by which one heals. It's just like grieving the death of a loved one...the only difference is, it's not a person who died, it's a marriage.

The reason people will warn you to avoid it because you'll be a rebound is, because part of his healing process will be to discover that he's still capable of fulfilling a woman's needs and desires. He'll need that proven to him. And the person who proves it rarely lasts long in their life.

[EvilEvilKitten]

Ahem, to interject some reality here:

Have you heard HER side of this story? No. Of course not.
Please review the sticky post Dealing with Adultery.
He may think he's telling you the truth but most likely the truth lies somewhere between HIS story and HER story. Yes, you talk for hours and you have met once before but really - dealing with him day-to-day, year in and year out is another kettle of fish entirely. I advocate CAUTION

Who was 'cheating' on whom is immaterial - the issue is WHY. Yes, you're going to have to explore this area with him. What was going on in his marriage that she felt the need to leave his bed? Was she still enjoying him when she was also enjoying these, apparently hundreds, of other men? You simply have got to get to the bottom of this issue before you go pliting your troth with this man.

If you want to enjoy him - fine - whatever. But keep your heart well armored until you gotten the real reason why his marriage went to ruin.