What the hell is this..... Love?

[oedipussy]

I'm new this whole forum business. I usually like to keep to myself, but I've got a problem that I don't understand.

I'll try to give the short version of the story, but it'll probably still be pretty long so just bear with me or quit reading. It all started a few weeks ago. I've known this girl for about 5 years now, and while I wouldn't exactly say that we're friends, we've had our share of ups and downs and a few indiscretions throughout the years. I have a well deserved reputation for being a jerk, an idiot, and basically just an all-around sleazebag, especially when it comes to women. I've had a, umm, "colorful" past when it comes to relationships, and she knows pretty much all the stories. Anyway, she had had it pretty rough recently and I went over to see her. It wasn't too long before she suggested we watch a movie and ended up cuddling with me. If I hadn't had such a history with her I would have slept with her right then and there, but unfortunately I decided to try be a somewhat decent guy for once. We did that twice more before she moved into her new apartment. I don't know what it was, but I definitely felt something. Anyway, I decided to drive out to visit her with the intention of having sex and to see where what we had would end up. We made the plans, and I drove the 200+ miles there, which isn't exactly a short trip (especially when your car only gets about 8 miles per gallon). When I got there it became pretty obvious that it didn't matter at all to her if I was there or not. She treated me like I was totally beneath her the whole time I was there, which may be true but she never acted that way toward me before. It didn't help matters that there was some other guy there that was trying to make time with her. I managed to behave myself for at least the first night, and was gonna leave right then and there but she convinced me that she wasn't sleeping with anyone and that I should stay. Fast forward to the next night and it was pretty much the same story, but I had had enough and tried to start a fight with the guy. I pretty much got kicked out after that. It was by far the most degrading thing I've ever had, and I've had quite a few in my day.

I don't know where things changed. I'm a very good looking guy (quite a bit better looking than that douchebag she turned against me over), she seemed interested in having me over and we have a mutual sexual attraction.

And now I have no idea what to do next about it. In a way I think I might be a little better than this, but in another way it seems right up my alley. All of my "great" relationships have been ugly and painful and demeaning. What can I say, I like the conflict.

I don't really know what I'm looking for here. I just don't understand what happened or what it is that I'm feeling. I wasn't looking for anything real with her, but this sure hurts like it's real...

[oedipussy]

No takers then? Alright. I guess my love life might be a little too messy for most people...

[anotheranon11]

Gotta give us some time... lol.

Hmm... Maybe since she knows your past she was trying to prevent something from destroying a five year friendship?

As for the hurt... it could be from your friend degrading you, perhaps? Or it could be from 'love,' though that is very, very hard to define and has so many different levels... I love my best friend... as a brother, and i love my girlfriend as such. It could be a friendship love, or a romantic love. Until you have a good experience having it shoved in your face and/or returned... you can't really define it.

[oedipussy]

Well the thing is we've never been really close or anything, I'm just a guy that she sees from time to time and gets drunk with. I'm not really sure that she would even call me a friend. So there really wouldn't be that much to destroy there. Not to mention that she lives hundreds of miles away from me now so destroying our friendship probably wouldn't matter too much.

Yeah, the degradation definitely hurt but so did the idea that she might be with some other guy over me. I know it's probably a little too early for it to be love but it definitely feels like it's starting to be.

I'm just not sure right now if I want to move past this and find out or not. It's not like I've never had this sort of thing happen before. I don't know why, but I tend to become a human punching bag for the women I care about. I guess it's just something about me.

[dancingdoc2]

Tit for tat? Sounds like you received a sampling of how you might have treated others.

> I have a well deserved reputation for being a jerk, an idiot, and basically just an all-around sleazebag, especially when it comes to women.

> I had had enough and tried to start a fight with the guy. I pretty much got kicked out after that. It was by far the most degrading thing I've ever had, and I've had quite a few in my day.

> And now I have no idea what to do next about it. In a way I think I might be a little better than this, but in another way it seems right up my alley. All of my "great" relationships have been ugly and painful and demeaning. What can I say, I like the conflict.

If this is how you define "great", what the hell do consider a bad relationship? What about the other people in your past, don't you think they thought they were better than this to put up with you? That you now think you are "a little better than this" gives me hope that you are ready to clean up your act and become a more respected member of society. If this is indeed true, then my suggestion is to work on changing both your attitude toward life, women, and relationships; and, to begin modeling the person you aspire to become.

You can do this, no therapy needed. "The best predictor for future behavior is past behavior." (Dr. Phil McGraw) If you want a better future for yourself and those around you, then you must begin building a better present. Over time the accumulation of present behaviors becomes the past and so your future should become much better.

> If I hadn't had such a history with her I would have slept with her right then and there, but unfortunately I decided to try be a somewhat decent guy for once.

This is out of context, however, I did this for a reason, do you not see the contradiction between good and bad values depicted at least one other time in your post? Perhaps you used the wrong word as this statement would have been much better and shown more promise had you not used "un" in conjunction with "fortunately".

> We made the plans, and I drove the 200+ miles there.... When I got there it became pretty obvious that it didn't matter at all to her if I was there or not...It didn't help matters that there was some other guy there that was trying to make time with her. I managed to behave myself for at least the first night....

Upon seeing what was going on with the other fella, why didn't you get a motel and turn around and drive home? If you truly want a better life, then you have to pick yourself up by your bootstraps and make it happen. This was a test and you did not score very well.

I know it is hard to start a new "ballgame", particularly when you only have bad habits to employ. This is why modeling is so useful and productive. You are behaving your way to success with behaviors and attitudes that are foreign to you, presently, yet the more you act on them and employ them, the more second nature they become.

> I'm a very good looking guy (quite a bit better looking than that douchebag she turned against me over)

For most people, it isn't all about looks. You have much to learn as part of turning your life around. What is important, now, assuming you do want to become a better man is to learn about-
* Honesty
* being Reliable
* Trustworthiness
* setting worthwhile and attainable Goals
* developing a stellar Character that others find attractive
* developing Ethics and Values that govern your life and that others notice and appreciate
* Valuing another human being
* behaving Responsibly

...as starters for becoming a better person.

> I had had enough and tried to start a fight with the guy.

How could you have handled this more productively?

> I don't know where things changed.

Things changed when the girl decided to have another guy over at the same time and playing the two of you off against each other.

Things changed when you decided to pick a fight rather than find another solution to the situation.

> I wasn't looking for anything real with her, but this sure hurts like it's real.

Damn, all the while during the reading of this tale, I thought you wanted to develop a relationship when all the while it was all about driving 200 miles at 8 mpg just to get your rocks off only to be cut off at the pass.

If you really want to turn things around, my recommendation is to develop some new friendships (only) with men and women new to your life, and once you have begun working on a new history for three months or so, then begin dating women who appreciate being around a guy like you (are becoming). To coin a phrase from work: "Plan your work and work your plan", all the while establishing loftier goals and values for yourself--and, looking for them in others.

[oedipussy]

Wow. All of the sudden I feel like I'm in therapy. Thanks for the post doc, you've got a few good points, but I think you may be being a tad too judgemental. It's kind of hard to describe who you are and what you're about in a just few short paragraphs.

"Tit for tat? Sounds like you received a sampling of how you might have treated others."

Well, I'll admit that I'm definitely not the greatest guy in the world, but I'm not the worst either. I tend to be all of the things that I mentioned, but I like to think that I do the right thing when it counts. I'm not ashamed of who I am. In fact I'm pretty damn proud of it. I'm young yet. I don't see any reason to change just now.

"If this is how you define "great", what the hell do consider a bad relationship?"

Well, I guess I can't really say that I've ever had a "bad" relationship. It's hard to explain, but the "great" relationships I had were great because there was a full range of real emotions and experiences in them, from the best to the worst, and there wasn't any sugarcoating or putting on airs. I'm glad that I experienced all of those things. Pain and humiliation are just part of being human. If you don't have that stuff you don't really appreciate the good things as much. I've had a few relationships that were "nice", and that's about all they were. None of them really stuck with me. I'm definitely not interested in having any more like that. They just didn't feel right to me.

"What about the other people in your past, don't you think they thought they were better than this to put up with you?"

I never purposely mistreated the people in my past that I cared about. In fact I would say that I went above and beyond to show them that I cared. Sure, I've done a few things in my life I'm not proud of. I've hurt people. Everyone makes mistakes, some more than others. I guess I fall into the latter category.

"Upon seeing what was going on with the other fella, why didn't you get a motel and turn around and drive home? If you truly want a better life, then you have to pick yourself up by your bootstraps and make it happen. This was a test and you did not score very well."

Well, like I said, I was going to leave, but honestly I was piss drunk at that point so driving was kind of out of the question and she convinced me that I should stay. And personally I'd rather fight for what I want no matter how bad it gets than just give up and slink away, so I'm glad that I did stay.

"> I had had enough and tried to start a fight with the guy.

How could you have handled this more productively?"

Beats me. Fighting usually works well enough. It would have felt good at the very least.

"> I wasn't looking for anything real with her, but this sure hurts like it's real.

Damn, all the while during the reading of this tale, I thought you wanted to develop a relationship when all the while it was all about driving 200 miles at 8 mpg just to get your rocks off only to be cut off at the pass."

I guess I misspoke there. What I meant was that it had never crossed my mind that we would have something like this. At least that's the best way I can explain it.

[-wittyphrasehere-]

Sounds like a good bout of karma and puppy love.
If you didn't want anything serious, those feelings probably aren't real. Give yourself a few weeks and a distraction or two and you'll be back to you're old self.

[oedipussy]

Karma, huh? I guess it's possible... I'm pretty damn sure it's not puppy love though. I think I'm a bit past the "puppy love" phase, not that I really know if that's something you outgrow. At the very least I haven't had something like that for about 5 years now, give or take.

Anyway, I know the feelings I had were real, because if they weren't I wouldn't be seriously considering just sucking it up, swallowing my pride and taking another shot at it after that trainwreck. I only do that with the ones that matter...

[-wittyphrasehere-]

It's your call. Having a nice sit down and chat might clear somethings up for you without alcohol. Communication is key.
Sorry man, I don't really give specific advice with relationships. From experience, it's like stepping on a mine field. And I want to keep both my legs.

[oedipussy]

Well, I don't know about the "nice sit down and chat" thing (that's really not how me and her get along), but I have to see her in about two weeks anyway 'cause I left some of my stuff over there and she'll be bringing it with her when she comes back this way. Guess I'll just have to see what happens.

Heh, no problem, I appreciate the responses anyway. Not sure I'm even really looking for advice here anyway. I guess maybe I just wanted some outside perspectives on the whole thing....