Bad news

[hipdude]

I was doing some research quite related to sexuality when I discovered that women desire symmetrical men (men when symmetrical men hence masculine faces ) during the periods when they are most fertile. These very masculine men are preferred for short term or extra-pair partners. However this high masculinity may be associated with costs of decreased paternal investment. This result confirms the "Nice guy finish last" theories.
Women prefer jerks who do not invest in the relationship because they are good looking. Nice guys can have a relationship with a women but it is subject to interruption during a women most fertile time of the month for extra-pair mating with a jerk. Biology is biased for jerks.

The killer is that a women's olfactory senses tend to favor the scent of more symmetrical men, most notably during the women's fertile period. So even the scent is enough to attract a women away from a adoring but nice suitor. Jerks product stronger 4,16-androstadien-3-one (androstadienone) which causes changes in mood, most notably during the women's fertile period, wow.

This is bad news for guys like me that desired a LTR. I knew the competition was unfair, I didn't know how unfair. I didn't know that mood altering chemicals where being used. I didn't know the no amount of being nice, respect and all the other things we are told women like, would be worth a hill of beans when a desires your women. It seems to fit however. So I don't know, we (nice guys) take a lot of hits trying to have a relationship with women but the fix is in. Sad I like women but you can't fight mother nature. The source for this material is at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov If I were you I would write me off and not research this. I'm sorry I did but I glad I know, it is freeing in a way cause you know there nothing wrong with you. Sorry for spell/grammer its the best i can do considering.

[WallyLlama]

You've got to be kidding, right?

The shape of your face and the way you smell determines whether or not you attract women?!!!!

If you'd like to include me in your research, I will share just a few facts (not too many on a post since there are people on the forum who love leveraging personal info).

My face is not terribly symmetrical... in fact my nose is a bit crooked. I'm not sure how I smell to women during their fertile periods, that might deserve further study. I've been told reasonably consistently that I'm a "nice guy" and a "gentleman." (I acknowledge notable exceptions, particularly on 101. LOL)

That said, I am currently loved by the most wonderful woman in the world and would have to say that I'm "finishing" any where but last, partly because she puts me (and more importantly us) first.

I would, as you requested, "write you off" were it not for the fact that what you've posted is an insult to good women.

In other words, your research is seriously flawed on a number of points, but if it makes you happy...

[hipdude]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (WallyLlama @ Aug. 05 2005,02:47)]You've got to be kidding, right?

The shape of your face and the way you smell determines whether or not you attract women?!!!!

If you'd like to include me in your research, I will share just a few facts (not too many on a post since there are people on the forum who love leveraging personal info).

My face is not terribly symmetrical... in fact my nose is a bit crooked. I'm not sure how I smell to women during their fertile periods, that might deserve further study. I've been told reasonably consistently that I'm a "nice guy" and a "gentleman." (I acknowledge notable exceptions, particularly on 101. LOL)

That said, I am currently loved by the most wonderful woman in the world and would have to say that I'm "finishing" any where but last, partly because she puts me (and more importantly us) first.

I would, as you requested, "write you off" were it not for the fact that what you've posted is an insult to good women.

In other words, your research is seriously flawed on a number of points, but if it makes you happy...

I wish I were kidding. Did you check the reseach? Not my reseach, this date was taken from the National Center Biotechnology Informaton (NCBI). The NCBI publishes abstracts of peer reviewed journals for reseachers. You can find it at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is not my reseach but one additional person in studies involving thousands makes little difference. Anecdotes do not provide scientific results because they are not repeatable.

The article "Partnership status and the temporal context of relationships influence human female preferences for sexual dimorphism in male face shape." Proc Biol Sci. 2002 Jun 7;269(1496):1095-100 does conclude female preferences of centain face shapes. You personal story is very nice.

This is not an insult to good women. Saying someone is a good women (or bad) is a value judgement, I do not make. What I wrote, is taken from peer review article on human biology. It is no more a insult than saying "women can have babies". Don't kill the messager and check out actual reseach for yourself.

I have no reseach to be flawed. But you have not pointed our one flaw. Personal anecdotes are invalid. Saying "I took a pill and my p#nis got bigger" is not reseach.

It doesn't make me happy, I wish it was not true. It also frees me.

BTW having numerous notable exceptions raises questions about your "Nice Guy" status.

[WallyLlama]

Well, I'm certainly not going to debate this... for one thing I'm not that interested. I do, however, want to explain what I meant by the comment regarding an "insult" to good women.

What often passes for science is a sacred cow and sacred cows make great steaks. Let's remember the scientific method starts with a theory... many doctoral thesis get thrown out because the researcher proves exactly what he or she set out to prove by ignoring other evidence, ancedotal or otherwise.

I do not apologize for making a value judgement regarding "good women." (If we remove the word "good," does it become more acceptable to you? I used it only because there are some very shallow women who probably do choose their men based on some weird factors.)

You said, "Women prefer jerks who do not invest in the relationship because they are good looking." That, my friend, is an insult to women. The research you cite does not support that conclusion.

It is one thing to say that women prefer symmetrical faces; it is another to take that preference and extend it to the conclusion that women do not make personal decisions, everything is biologically driven based on face shape and smells. That is, to use a very scientific term, horseshit. And it's a gross misapplication of the data from the research.

As for anecdotal evidence not being repeatable, I think you could find any number of women very much in love with guys who's faces are not symmetrical... count them up so you have some numbers and you can call that scientific data. Unfortunately, it won't support the conclusion you want to draw.

I'm happy that your conclusion makes you feel free. I just don't think you should expect a lot of cheering and support.

[hipdude]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (WallyLlama @ Aug. 06 2005,01:54)]Well, I'm certainly not going to debate this... for one thing I'm not that interested. I do, however, want to explain what I meant by the comment regarding an "insult" to good women.

What often passes for science is a sacred cow and sacred cows make great steaks. Let's remember the scientific method starts with a theory... many doctoral thesis get thrown out because the researcher proves exactly what he or she set out to prove by ignoring other evidence, ancedotal or otherwise.

I do not apologize for making a value judgement regarding "good women." (If we remove the word "good," does it become more acceptable to you? I used it only because there are some very shallow women who probably do choose their men based on some weird factors.)

You said, "Women prefer jerks who do not invest in the relationship because they are good looking." That, my friend, is an insult to women. The research you cite does not support that conclusion.

It is one thing to say that women prefer symmetrical faces; it is another to take that preference and extend it to the conclusion that women do not make personal decisions, everything is biologically driven based on face shape and smells. That is, to use a very scientific term, horseshit. And it's a gross misapplication of the data from the research.

As for anecdotal evidence not being repeatable, I think you could find any number of women very much in love with guys who's faces are not symmetrical... count them up so you have some numbers and you can call that scientific data. Unfortunately, it won't support the conclusion you want to draw.

I'm happy that your conclusion makes you feel free. I just don't think you should expect a lot of cheering and support.

I think there is no insult because no insult was intended. One can always take things the right way or the wrong way. Forgive me if anyone is insulted, this was not the intent. You know the whole love, sex, relationship thing is deeply rooted in biology. I understand that looking a human mating the same way one looks at fish spawning bothers some.

Ancedotal stories can't be used in reseach because 1) they are not control ed no control group, 2) subjects aren't random - include you would have this problem. 3) not reproducable. some may be 4) reseachers subject not blind to experiment. being studied changes your behavoir.

If an Ancedotal story can be reproduced then you may have something. But even a double blind random subject result need to be reproduced. As the cold fusion guys. Their result was an Ancedote.

I say good is a value judgement because who is to say some behavoir is good or bad. This sexual selection has got human being this far. Somehow it works for evolution.

Ok The use of the word "jerk" is a short hand. Unstable is better, but harder to use. The reseach does support this and more. Please review it fully.

It says women perfer these "jerks" for short term relationship. This study was to determine a women preference. Maybe the authors did not make their case, fair enough. But they used the word prefer. In addition, women in LTR perfer these jerks the most during a women most fertile time of the month, greatly increase the chance of conceiving outside her primary relationship. In fact the attraction occurs even if the subject is only allowed to smell the shirt of this type of man. That's what is says! not me. To me its horrible.

I didn't know this research was going on and I wouldn't think it was possible because things like "jerks" and attraction are so hard to define. I have my questions about this research also.

My use of Women here is a distribution behaviors shown by women along normal (bell) curve. Each person is an individual. Some showed this behavior strongly, some weakly, most average. Its not a prediction of behavior.

feeling, hunches, and stories you heard are the things that should be kept out or I guarantee one of your thesis reviews will say "prove it" during your presentation. You could clearly identify that this is a story to illustrate a point or a storied which lead to researching the truth.

If you think its a gross misapplication, address the authors. This is peer review research so it hard discount. Many researchers are trying to reproduce these results and they may show a problem.

Your procedure for using anecdotal data fails several tests. Also this anecdotal didn't say a women can't love men with asymmetric faces. It says there exists a preference. She may like his face but you win of every other point. It seen my gf's eye almost pop out of her face but she didn't offer herself to him (I think).

Not my conclusion. I accept it and just put it down to one of those things I can't change. Like if I was taller I would be more attractive.

[finewine]

I will say dear sir, that with that kind of attitude you will never be attractive to women.

The issue here to me is why you are so adamant about believing so tenaciously that research as if you wanted to prove you will always finish last.

I will say that there is a self-esteem issue here?
I will venture to say that you had a girl stolen from you by a "good-looking" (your judgement) man?

Seems to me you have dug a 6 foot hole for yourself, laid in it voluntarily, hold the day lily on your chest and want the researchers to throw the dirt on top of you.

I will say get up off your donkey butt, (you won't get a pity party from me) and make yourself attractive. *

Humor, wit, intellegence, confidence, kindness, thoughtfulness, strong leadership, a feeling of being cherished, strong convictions, enjoying conversations at deep feeling levels, sharing the heart and soul....
these are things women want in long term relationships.

I can say so because I'm a woman and don't give a rat's ass about pompous scientists who think they can quantify the human heart.
NO amount of hormones or physical features or smell will sway a woman away from a man that loves her more than life itself.

Please tell us what it is that happened in your life such that you use the reseach material as an excuse to give up on being the nice guy and finding his true love...

Are you in such great pain that you will just accept the research to ease and be free of the pain and become numb???

You can PM me if you like.

[lilly2279]

I'd like to add my two cents to this little debate and acknowledge the fact that the statistics are correct about preferring symmetrical men and hormones and all that jazz.

BUT you're also forgetting that men have the same thing. Men are very visual and "prefer" (according to scientists) women who have large eyes, smooth skin, symmetrical faces and the correct ratios, rounded hips, full breast and long hair. This visual perception makes their hormones go "she's healthy, she can have babies, let's go for her!" But, oh my.... What about women with small eyes, a slightly crooked nose and a lean runners frame? She could still be gorgeous!! Does that mean no men will go for her because she doesn't fit those statistical things?? Did you know men also become more attracted to women who are in their cycle and fertile?

We are biological creatures who do respond, at least biologically to visual stimulation, hormonal stimulation, etc. But since we are humans and not sea monkeys, we have these wonderful complex brains. They help us choose our mate. Not every woman can have the hot symmetrical guy, just like not every guy can have the hot symmetrical hour glass shaped woman.

Our brains will help us pick out the mate we want. Some women do go for jerks, just like some men date bitches.

It's not just you who is knocked out of the race. If you're trying for angelina jolie's twin or something, you may have a bit of a problem, but there are plenty of women out there looking for good men.

Understand, rubberband?

[adam]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (WallyLlama @ Aug. 05 2005,02:47)]You've got to be kidding, right?

The shape of your face and the way you smell determines whether or not you attract women?!!!!

If you'd like to include me in your research, I will share just a few facts (not too many on a post since there are people on the forum who love leveraging personal info).

My face is not terribly symmetrical... in fact my nose is a bit crooked. I'm not sure how I smell to women during their fertile periods, that might deserve further study. I've been told reasonably consistently that I'm a "nice guy" and a "gentleman." (I acknowledge notable exceptions, particularly on 101. LOL)

That said, I am currently loved by the most wonderful woman in the world and would have to say that I'm "finishing" any where but last, partly because she puts me (and more importantly us) first.

I would, as you requested, "write you off" were it not for the fact that what you've posted is an insult to good women.

In other words, your research is seriously flawed on a number of points, but if it makes you happy...

I remember seeing a documentary saying that women are statistically more attracted to symmetrical faces. They would take photographs of men, then digitally alter then so that they were perfectly symmetrical, and show both pictures to women. More women preferred the symmetrical faces.

Heh, life.

[oberon]

LOL... I just love these studies. *

What- in my opinion- they seem to forget is that while we are products of biology, we are also products of intellect, ethics, and of our own unique experiences. *

Sure a woman may find a man's physical appearance attractive.... right up until she learns he's been divorced umpteen times, has half a dozen kids by as many women, and is currently cheating on his present relationship. *It's amazing how a few facts can change someone's attractiveness.

Reducing us to mere biological machines is absurd... and as has been so correctly stated, an insult.