That's exactly what I mean, SPQR! :)
Especially: "the more the “noise” the more the emptiness behind it" ;)

I've also noticed that the men who seem to take most joy in displaying their dominance around the company, become terrible suck-ups once the wife is actually present. Seems like he feels a need to push me down, as pay-back for the wife giving him a tough time at dinner the evening before... Most fascinatingly; these are also the men who emphasize that employees should separate private lives from their work. Whereas they're the ones so clearly dragging their personal lives along with them every working day like dead weight:rolleyes:

SPQR, I've been reading your other posts as well and I must say: I like the way you express yourself. But from the looks of it; no-one has welcomed you to this forum yet(?) So here you are: welcome! :) I hope you'll enjoy participating. Just in case you haven't noticed, a great place to start discovering this forum is the index: it provides an overview of very interesting stickies, ordered by category.

I am no expert in these matters. I have a certain age and all my conclusions are from experience, which in turn might be biased.

As a man I can say one thing... There is little next to no respect towards women when in conversations among us... :o
Most men (the dangerous majority that is) are in love with their own “manhood” and consider women just a mean to please themselves, or a “servant“...
I’ve got this impression, over +/-44 years of “adulthood”, on three continents and meeting lots of different cultures, religions, etc.

Are we man endangered? If true , so what ... We deserve to be judged for our general attitude of propagating the human species ...
So far the only ones that did their very best are the women...

Man is allot of “noise”, has a great amount of “modern selfishness” and lost most of the “qualities” that defined him in the past... Not that those were real “qualities” but some were beneficial.

Women. Did you know that those men that want to be “above” you, to get you down on them, are actually (most of them definitively) despicable cowards ? And I say this from combat experience... The ones boasting of how they master their women most, were (are) the first to run, abandon their wounded comrades, even wet their pants, literally...(with some seldom exceptions...)
The ones expressing their love and abandon to their loved one (sometimes lamenting rejection - the “softy“ stigma) displayed outstanding attitude toward death, endured horrible wounds with dignity, and quite often offered their live for the benefit of the unit...

Simplistic as it might be, as opposed to social and behaviour studies, my point is the attitude in front of peril that defines a man.
The same attitude is seen at work place.
The softy one next to his woman will display dignity and strength at his work place or when trouble.
The ones displaying strength next you dear woman, are just softy at work, cowards , the suck-up types.
I might be wrong, but I had my fill with this “man first” attitude, and I dare to make it a rule... (more or less)

Now the choice is for the woman to take the lead, and I’m kind of sure we will all be better off...
Just do not take revenge on the “softy” ones ;)... or just because what happened hundreds of years ago...

And make the right choice. When a woman dreams for love, tenderness, affection why is ending up at the opposite ?
Because is not about men‘s , it is about the woman’s choices in the end... Lots of “noise” (behaviour, “coolness” ) is there in men to attract and influence the choice of potential partners...
Be warned though, the more the “noise” the more the emptiness behind it...
:o

unless more women decide to become lesbians because there is a shortage of good men, then really women are the ones in trouble. women have lowered their standards when dating. too many times i see girls with guys that are honestly losers. i am not including the ones that are having a tough time finding a job because a lot are, but the ones that don't look for a job, don't help around the house or with the children, and are just plain old ungrateful.

to solve this problem is a much larger discussion.

"The Founding Fathers believed, and the evidence still shows, that industriousness, marriage and religion are a very important basis for male empowerment and achievement."

Well duh! Because men ruled business, oppressing women even through religion and were to be obeyed without question in marriage, in the days of the founding fathers! I don't know what the "evidence" is supposed to mean. I thought the article said that times were changing? So how representative is the evidence then?

I think this article is making men seem more of a victim of changing society than they really are. I mean; men still earn a lot more than women. Same job, same age, same education, ah: gender. Meaning that the message to men is: while younger and with a lesser education you're probably still making the same as your female superior. Perhaps that is what is making men lazy to achieve??? :rolleyes:

Even if a man gets married, has kids, has a job and goes to church each Sunday (or whatever house of religion on whatever holy day), there's nothing to hold him back from letting his wife run her ass off between her work, the household and her children, while he plays videogames. An old fashioned solution for a new day and age is just not going to work.

LOL this article is a load of crap. Video games and church are their basis? Get real.

I could go on and on about why men are falling behind but its real simple. These new age "feminists". You know, the girls who claim to be feminists but are anything but....

This article sounds like it was written by a bunch of whiny old men :p

G-dubz, lol wow, ok I could understand both sides. there are boys who are young men who still have the mind of a child. It really depends on the person though. RR is right about they still get paid more and they are equal just like the women. It is more of the motivation of taking responsibility that they are afraid of, and the idea of guys that are losers like ducy once told me it's me not them. I am choosing the wrong guys. Maybe the women should encourage the men to go for it without deminishing them saying they are worthless piece of crap.

The problem is that a lot of women pull the "I'm equal" line and don't live up to it. I spoke to a woman today who complained she made half as much as her husband but they both had PhD's.

His was science, hers was a PhD in office organization.

Hmm I wonder why she gets paid less. It wasn't that one had a more sought after degree, it was because the workforce is "sexist". My godmother has a PhD. Works for Boeing. Makes 3 times my godfathers salary...he doesn't have a degree. See my point?

Granted there is sexism in the workforce and everywhere, but with all the "I am woman here me roar" shows on tv. The way they constantly bash men. Its insane. I actually have only had 1 or 2 good conversations/debates with women who are "equal rights supporters". The rest that I have ever talked to will attack you for saying 1 "bad" comment against women. Its almost impossible to talk to them because a simple discussion of views turns into nothing but ad hominems.

How about we stop wasting money on stupid studies and put it towards better educational systems?

i think our society has come far from where is was when women first started entering the workforce. i want ask about the wage difference between men and women. before i form an opinion that women are just treated unfairly for no reason i want to post this question. is it possible that businesses (excluding union labor) secretly pay women less to save money for maternity leave for their female employees? i am not really sure how maternity leave works as far as paying the woman while she takes time off. does she just take sick and vacation time off, or is there something else in place?

Big, no, that is not true. And if it were true, it would be completely unfair. Why would only women have to pay for the birth of children? Many women never even have children. Maternity leave, as it is arranged here, is paid by the entire working community together. Everyone throws in a bit in the big pot, so that she can have her paid leave. Some companies have better policies compared to the nation-wide-policy. Which is paid from the companies money via an insurance that covers it. In that case; you could say you and your colleagues are paying for your pregnant colleague's maternity leave.

No, the fact is that women simply are paid less. And Ducy, I really don't mean that. I mean the same, really the SAME. That's the part of statistics and research that's quite easy.

There has been somewhat disputable research on the reasons. One of the reasons could be that women are less demanding. The boss says; I'm offering you this salary and these social benefits. Women seem more inclined to accept it, thinking that it's simply a fair salary compared to the other workers. Companies even make it seem so; "just give our adminstration a few days to calculate your salary based on your age, education and experience". If women negotiate, they seem more prone to negotiate benefits. And less inclined to really play it "rough" or to maximize their winnings by parading around the office "I'm so f-ing good!!! So pay up!". Men seem more prone to do this.

Btw, Ducy, as far as these forums count as conversation/debates, I can think of several senior members, including myself, who are equal right supporters... Makes it a bit sad to read you only had 1 or 2 good debates, doesn't it?

No RR lol, I didn't properly express myself.

I have only had 1 or 2 good debates in a face to face. The senior members on these forums are awesome. But I don't try to have debates about equallity with them. I went on a vent a few months back and made a total ass of myself lol. Not really a proper debate (my fault)

I never used to really think about equality until I had daughters. Anecdotal story: My girls learned to ride their bikes waaaaay before a few neighborhood boys, and you'd see those dads outside barking at the kids and pointing at my girls and how "they're already doing it and they are several years younger". My brother (who has daughters as well) looked at me and said "and to think, they'll make more money."

Now I see it everywhere. I witness it at work when a (thankfully fired) manager used to belittle a woman to the point she would come to my office once a week in tears, because she knew I wasn't "one of them" and she needed to vent. For the work she did she was paid a pittance, barely above the people she had to manage who were "labor" level. And hers was a very important position. Thankfully she left on her own accord and is doing much better.

I will say though, I think that some jobs are geared in creation to stay low paying, and in such a way that they "know" that only women will apply. Clerical jobs for example. They're NEVER just clerical, and usually absorb a lot of important functions over the year, but pay never follows. The women I know here are not necessarily meek, but they're very "don't make waves" because they want to stay forever. So they just bend over and take it.

And therein lies women's downfall. The way of business is "competitive" while women's style is "cooperative". besides which, most companies keep salary information private so workers cannot compare. Fortunately, there is the military (albeit it too has its issues) which onot only pays equally but publishes its salary scale and both gender get overworked.

Firmus, my husband also understood after the birth of his daughter. "How would you like it if someone else told her how she should live her life, how to dress, how to behave, what to say and what to think?"

Ducy - I am a feminist. Do you doubt me?

Men might be 'in trouble' as the article says but with my further reading, I have come to the opinion that most of this "in trouble" is misapplied stats and BS. This is also evident in this article when the lady says "from the beginning of time" - that's completely false.

There is one thing that troubles me however, it seems that a great many women have decided that having a man in the house is an expensive luxury - one they can do very well without. While I can applaud the independence of this view, I cannot agree with appling accountantcy to what should be love and mutual respect.

I can so much relate to your point of view, Firmus. When I started working, no-one got paid any extra for all the extra responsibilities, tasks and time that were not in our job-description. And I never even suspected anyone of regarding me as different or less for being female. Even though 90% of my colleagues -and our customers- are male and twice my age. Charming, I know many have called me that, but that's not bad at all :) Now that we've gotten all these new managers and colleagues, the atmosphere has changed. Even my boss has told me that my gender is actually a disadvantage :eek: I'm not much inclined to adjusting myself to their narrow-minded, pig-headed views of women as accessory, eye-candy or secretary to meetings, instead of the equal business-partner that I am. They won't regard me as such, unless I behave more "masculine". Sorry, but I'm not interested in becoming one of those gorillas who thump their chest and scream they are the best (when really; they're not), while competing eachother. By the Gods; we are one company and share common goal! Is ego really that important?! Many of my long-known male colleagues don't like it. And some of them are really top of the line. Those who shout the least... :rolleyes: You may have guessed it is quite a motivation for me to get out of there. Perhaps it's part of the reason why I'm now turning to a rather female centered profession ;) Even though this little company it once was, was like a little family to who I for a long time felt like I really owed them my loyalty (sometimes I still have hiccups of that).

No "expensive man" in this home for more than one night at a time!

Interesting findings are emerging in Europe and N. America as women occupy more of the executive suite: We are better decision makers. Women consider more variables before committing to a course of action. Yes, a few have been binned - Carly Fiorina comes to mind - and some of them because they are too much like men rather than themselves - same woman comes to mind.

Professions: I see two female doctors, a female dentist and attorney. My accountant is a male. He is indefatigable and single minded keeping me out of jail but protecting every penny. He is a misogynist and likely resents every penny I have but does his single job admirably.

Science: No real difference except that there are too few women who even try it.

[QUOTE=Brandye;274360]Science: No real difference except that there are too few women who even try it.[/QUOTE]
yes that is the problem with both genders. i don't understand why so many women don't become entrepreneurs. they are the biggest consumers and most inventions or services come from someone's experiences. besides sky rocketing prices for tuition men are graduating less and less from college because they think it is not for them. they mostly get that idea because they have horrible teachers. that's how it is at least in the US.

that's the student's fault. Yes, teachers should teach but if the students aren't willing to learn - they won't. So they blow the opportunities they have.

Women do become entrepeneurs and more would if funding were available to them. Then there's that whole work-life thing lots of people talk about even though women have been working others for eons.

It comes down to not enough people being willing to just do what they love to do "and may the Devil take the hindmost!"

That's not an article, it's a fart that happens to look like some letters.

I gotta say, reading all these forums, I learned stuff I never would have learned in school.

@EEK: The reason a lot of kids nowadays don't want to learn is because teachers don't do enough to make the criteria look even remotely interesting. Aside from that, I completely agree with you on all your points thus far. :)

However, personal experience must be taken into account on the part of the men in this issue as well. My entire class started learning about the feminist movement when I was in middle school and we had it basically hammered into our heads that women are equal to men. While this is a view I agree with wholeheartedly -- you girls are human beings too, after all -- it completely shattered my own upbringing and it eventually got to the point where I was afraid of being considered sexist or pig-headed or demeaning for even approaching a girl romantically.

This fear persists to this day, even after learning that sexual harassment policies in most companies can include simply asking a coworker out on a date.

Just my two cents. Basically, men might not be in trouble at the moment, but we seem to be headed down that road.

Whether the teacher makes something interesting or not does not release you from having to learn it. So - off to alternative sources! Libraries, online, books by those in the field in question and so on are all good sources. There's a wealth of material out there and often in unexpected places. Plus ever field has an academic magazine or two devoted to the subject.

I can tell you more than you'd like to know about King John of England - why did I look him up? Because he's one of my ancestors - that's why. History becomes personal when you find it they had a ... ahem ... hand in you're being here. But then the Earl of Norfolk who, along with others, forced John to sign the Magna Carta was another ancestor of mine as also was the reason for Clause 29 - the one about Due Process - was an ancestress of mine. Hey, you can't pick your family. History is no longer a collection of boring dates.

[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;276290]Whether the teacher makes something interesting or not does not release you from having to learn it.[/QUOTE]

Truer words have seldom been spoken. That being said, the teacher is still failing miserably at their job if they cannot even hold the kid's attention for sixty seconds. Then again, I digress. Some kids just hate school for no apparent reason and would rather be doing other things.

Since we seem to have gone off on a tangent, though, why not steer this thread back to where it was? What about the whole "men are in trouble" thing?

Uh! I've got to really do something productive like sleep.

I don't believe we can be smt like that :D