Well, Guido, it's a little late now to change anything! Where were you 20 years ago when my parents were deciding to give my penis a trim around the edges?

What makes it worse is the fact that they didn't even know what they were doing... I remember being a little kid (6 or 7), and my mom was teaching me how to wash my penis and said to make sure that I "Pull the skin back".

Geez!

As an uncircumcised man all i can say is: good rant

Yikes! Given what us women have to go through, I never thought I would hear myself say this about medical stuff, but in this respect I am glad I'm a girl!!

I must say, my ex was uncircumsized (being born in another country) and I have definately developed a preference for it.

OMG, I had no idea! What an informative rant - thanks Guido.

I quite agree. There really is no need for it under normal circumstances.

But there are some occasions when medical removal of foreskin is needed. Cancers, tightness etc...

maybe it's just me, but i think circumsized penises are far more aesthetically pleasing than uncut ones. medically there might not be a reason, but i will still circumsize any male children of mine. it's just prettier that way. in my opinion anyhow...

My girlfriend doesn't ever seem to stop saying that my penis is cute, so I'm not knocking the look of a circumsized penis. I'm not even knocking the feel, because I don't know any differently...

My posting was mostly tongue in cheek.

I can't believe Druid's post - someone tell me she's kidding?!

Give your head a shake!

I have to say I am 100% with Guido on this one!

Oh the controversy...

First off, it was the middle of the night and yes I was just a little tired and slightly inebriated so I didn't expound sufficiently on my opinion.  You totally got me there.

Yes I do find circumsized penises to be more attractive.  Whether or not anyone else agrees with me, it's true, I absolutely do think they're prettier.  That's not my only reason for my feelings toward having any male children of mine circumsized, but it is one.  Some people may feel that that is an entirely shallow reason for "mutilating" my future children and that I'm a shallow person for using that reason.  Okay.  I can live with being shallow.  Hell, I'm from southern California... most of us are shallow to some degree so I fit in pretty well.

My parents are Jewish and I did grow up in that enviroment.  Even though I am no longer of that religion, it has still shaped who I am and what I think about things.  Circumcision was important to my ancestors and it is one way that I can utilize to pay homage to my heritage.  My future children will be told of who they are and why I made the choices that I will make regarding them.

There are also reasons that to me are very personal and that I choose to keep private.  I am very thankful that I live in a country where I have the freedom to make my own choices and where the choices you make for your family don't have to be justified to anyone but your family.  My fiance and I are in agreement on the circumcision issue.  That's all I need to know.

Guido and others have very strong opinions about this topic and I absolutely respect them for that.  I very much admire those who will stand up for their convictions.  I simply wish to stand up for mine.  If I have bent anyone out of shape, it was not my intention.  If it's any consolation to those who disagree with me, just remember that I'm only 22 years old and I don't intend to have children for a few years yet.  I may change my mind in that time, or I may not.  It's really nice though that controversial subjects such as this can make you re-examine your own feelings about something.  Thoughtful decisions are always a good thing.

The way I look at it, this isn't a choice that any parent has to make. If you do not choose to circumcise your child as a baby, this choice is not permenant. That child can always choose to become circumcised later in life. If you do choose to have your baby circumcised, that choice is permenant. That child can never choose to become uncircumcised.

Druid--and anyone else planning to circumcise their sons--I can understand wanting to pass on your heritage, but why not wait until your children are old enough to decide for themselves which aspects of that heritage they want?

My reasoning for having it done at birth is that, for one, it's the custom of the jews to have it done shortly after birth and that is the tradition I wish to uphold.  Doing it later would be like having a bar mitzvah when you're 30.  Some people do it but it is inconsistant with the tradition, rendering it pretty much pointless in my opinion.  Also considered is the pain factor.  While I definitely agree that it must be an intensively painful experience at any age, to do it soon after birth does have the advantage that, much like the pain inflicted by birth itself, it is not typically remembered.

I can't understand how any parent could unnecessarily hurt their own child. I can't think of any reason (other than true medical) that could justify it.

Guido, Just to respond to what you said, and clarify what I've said:

I have no idea how an uncircumsized penis feels during sex or anything else. A circumsized penis is all that I've ever had, and I don't remember the pain from when I was a baby, or look at my penis and feel like I've been mutilated.

At my age, I'm happy with what I've got. I'm not saying that what happened to my penis is right or wrong, but it doesn't upset me at all, and I'm certainly not losing any sleep over it. Hey, I even enjoy sex! (Disabled even!) My girlfriend doesn't seem to mind that my penis is circumsized, and I think she enjoys the sex we have too.

Now, I'm only 20, so I'm not quite at the age where I'm thinking about kids, so I haven't thought about whether or not mine will be circumsized. I guess I'll have to research it a little bit more when I get closer to that time.

In hindsight, my parents made a choice for me, rather than leaving it for me to make for myself, but that happens every day.

I was actually surprised (and a little sceptical) that circumcision was first introduced in the U.S. as a measure to reduce masturbation. But lo and behold, on checking this subject out a little further it is in fact true. It's pretty amazing!

The practice was intoduced to the U.S. through England, but they abandoned it nearly 50 years ago, practicing it now at the rate of only 1%. The rate is 3% in New Zealand, 10% in Australia and 20% to 25% in Canada. Routine Infant Circumcision is not offered in most non-English speaking countries. It never caught on in Europe, Asia, South or Central America. If the majority of men elsewhere in the world were having medical problems because their penises were left intact, wouldn’t these countries begin the practice? One can't help but wonder why we are the only medically advanced nation that performs routine infant circumcisions without any medical indication.

The Medical Associations in the U.S. all now agree that circumcision is not medically necessary, but seem reluctant to come right out and advise against it, as Associations in other countries have. Could this be self-serving? Might there be a fear of lawsuits against its members should patients be told the plain truth? Hmmm ...

Some other interesting statistics I came across are:

There are 23 medically advanced nations. The U.S. is the only nation which routinely circumcises nearly 63% of its newborn males. The U.S. represents less than 1/20th of the world population, yet it performs more than half of all infant circumcisions worldwide.

The population of the U.S is 260 Million. The entire world population is 5 Billion, 700 Million. Out of those, 2 Billion, 647 Million are males currently living. 18% of them are circumcised.

Food for thought ...

Ok, i feel it's time for me to say something on this issue. I am a circumsised man, and not one at infantcy. When i was younger, i had a major problem with getting infections. It was chronic, and constant, often getting several in a single month. In fourth grade, it came to a point where i couldn't stand it anymore, and finally got the surgery done, dispite the objections of my parents. Many years later, i look back at this, and do not regret my desicsion to.

I can also personally attest to having a circumsion done as something which is extremely painful, especially when an angry older sister decides to indulge her hateful desires, and shoot a donkey punch onto me. Now, does circumcision hurt babies? most likely, i don't doubt for a minute that it doesn't, however, the argument of memory does apply. Simply put, you can't remember it, it doesn't hurt, right ;)

There is a legitmate reason for men to be circumsised. I'm aware that it is not an especially common problem, However, it does exist, and it is extremely painful to get done.

-Ebonyks out

Geeeeezz...you're all making me feel reaaaally relaxed.

I've got a circumsion operation in April under general anaesthesia.

Anyone got any comments or hints???

It's not something I would do in the future as I had not done it in the past with my kids. I was circumcised but wasn't compelled to pass down the ugly tradition even though it was never popular in my family to begin with, my circumcision was a mistake and I'm the black sheep of the family being the only one without the foreskin.

JR

Luvs2plzU, even though I'm uncut, I still have to laugh!! Your signature is even more funny!!

I know I got it done as a baby and it hurt so much I couldn't walk for a year !!

I'm too lazy to read half the other posts (too much HW to get to, also), so I don't know if anyone has said this already.  However, I will go ahead and say it anyways.  Let me say that the following comes from an uncut guy (me) who has grappled on and off about what others might think about his penis.  That being said, I think a few people on this board have taken this debate wayyyy to seriously and personally. First of all, it's only human to have personal preferences, especially preferences about what one finds visually pleasing/displeasing in the bodies of other people.  It's downright humanly impossible to be neutral about what kinds of bodily features one likes or dislikes.  Consequently people also have an innate tendency to get offended by opposing opinions when those opinions have to do with their bodily features.  Although this feeling is understandable, too, one just has to keep the above in mind: we are all attracted or unattracted to certain types of body characteristics whether we like it or not.  

Personally, I'm not attracted to women who have a lot of excess body weight.  There, I said it.  I probably offended a few people, but so be it.  That's my preference based upon my personal and life experience and it's not going to change (at least probably not).  So to the person(s) who is offended by Vixen916's comment of preference, please take a chill pill and RE-LAX    For every chick who prefers cut guys, I'm sure there are lots of others who either don't care (as long as the guy keeps clean) and/or prefer uncut guys.  Remember, although the majority of guys in the country are cut, the vast majority of the world's male population is uncut, so that's what a whole lot of women are used to. Finally, last time I checked, women don't usually go around asking guys they find attractive about whether or not they're cut. So preference ultimately doesn't matter that much compared to other things in terms of a woman's decision of whether or not to get into a relationship. It's the whole picture that makes the man, not the penis (insert equivilant saying about women here).

Peace,

Edubbs

Druid you make me sick! Your prepared to put a future child through pain, take away half the pleasure of all those nerve endings just for a "nice looking penis", despite the fact that as more men remain uncircumcised, the more women are happier with it! Plus i can tell you... ive seen some ugly circumcisions... p.s good luck finding a doctor to do that for you...

First of all I completely agree with Guido - it's completely unnecessary and I know I won't do it to my son if I'll ever have one.

Just to clarify a few things:

In Israel there is a growing number of parents who decide not circumcise their babies.

Circumcision is also practiced among muslims - they do it at the age of 12 to both males and females. This means that a very large percent of the males in the world is circumcised.

Druid:
I think I can understand your case better then most, since I'm also from a Jewish family.
I suggest you look into this tradition (by yourself, don't ask a rabbi) and see where it actually originated. If you still choose to do it, I hope you let a doctor handle it and not some old mohel, because these guys are not professionals and can cause a lot of damage - botched circumcisions happen.

Druid's last post was seven years ago.

I didn't notice it was an old thread.

Okay to clarify the difference between male and female circumcision:

male - they remove, with care, the foreskin

female - they slice off her clitoris, trim back her labia and then sew her vagina closed except for a small hole for the menstrual fluid and all without anesthetics or sanitary conditions. She's seven years old. Some groups literally grind off her clitoris using two rough stones. ON her wedding night, her husband literally rips her open again - and no anesthetics then either.

GUYS QUIT YOUR WHINING

(If guys' circumcision was equal to the females', half of your penis would be hacked off with a dull axe.)

It's not exactly the same, but both of them shouldn't be forced on children.
They are both unnecessary and painful.

Hey Guys - If you have been circumcised as a many of us have, and want to regain your foreskin no matter what age you are [COLOR="Red">you can[/COLOR] do something about it! Do a net search for Restoring Foreskin. You cannot get everything back the doctors took from you, (in many cases without your consent). But with time, effort and consistency you can restore your foreskin! It is worth all the work, it is healthier and also gives you greater sexual enjoyment and satisfaction!

Didn't you guys listen to eek.a girl can't get her clitoris back,so stop your "bloody whinging"and btw having a circumcised penis prevents phimosis(sorry if i spelt it wrong)tightening of the foreskin and other skin infections.and besides i actually prefer circumcised penisis',they look better.

[SIZE=2]WRT: Female Circumcision

Different cultures with different values, one no less legitimate than any other. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]If that's what they want to do to each other, if that's what their culture dictates to them what's proper, who are we to impose our values on them? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]How would you like it if some outraged foreigners came along and said that it is no longer proper and acceptable to have pierced ears? (Yea I know that I'm going to get hammered on this analogy, but I'm struggling to come up with a better one, sorry in advance - point being someone not of the culture passing judgments on the culture).

All you can do is decide not to comply with those cultural values. To change the culture it has to come from those within the culture to effect the change in the culture. Not externally imposed.

I think that it's a horrible practice as well, and one that I would not condone for my daughters. But they do have a right to conduct their culture as they see fit.
[/SIZE]

Yes shasta to some extent they do have a right to decide,but when it comes to MUTILATING YOUNG INNOCENT GIRLS COME ON.Just because i think that the cicumcised penis looks better and has more health benefits doesn't mean that it should be done.It all comes down to choice.Those girls didn't have a choice,it was something the village elders decided for them.I have two sons,both uncircumcised,my husband is and wanted the boys to be done as babies.I refused point blank to allow it instead opting to let my boys make their own decision on the matter as adults.One is almost 17 & the other 12

[SIZE=2]I am as abhorred at the practice as you are. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]However, I still maintain that a separate culture within a sovereign nation has a right to decide for themselves what their cultural values are. We, as outsiders to that culture, have very little to say about it. Are we required to live by their cultural norms? No we are not. How it is fair to expect them to live by our cultural norms?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Honor killings in India. Their culture demands it. It's a horrible practice.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Shria law and it's punishments. Horrible and unfair. Yet, their culture demands it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Arranged marriages. Some cultures it's the norm. I'm glad that it's not in my culture.[/SIZE]

Yes shasta you do have a point.These are all barbaric practices,and we have a right to our opinions IT SURE SUCKS to know these things still happen in the world.We can't do much,but it is through the courageousness of young women & men who stand up to the authorities who practice these abhorent acts that word spreads. And something finally starts to get done in this world,even if it is only one small step on the way to stopping these things from happening altogether.

You are viewing their cultural practices through your western frame of reference. To their frame of reference we are probably as 'incorrect' as we view them. We both have to get over it.

I / we can only hope that those in that culture change their practices, although, it should be noted, that cultural change generally takes a long time.

Shasta,

I suggest you do some real learning about what female circumcision is, how it is done and the reasons for it. There are certain human rights that transcend cultural traditions. A procedure that is performed, sometimes, with clam shells, often results in serious infection, sometimes results in death, always results in severe deformation and is intended only to eliminate female libido is evil.

And, forget the stuff about "sovereign nations." No nation advocates for this practice; it is tribal practice. Within the western world, there are pockets of immigrant groups that continue this practice. Many of these "sovereign nations" have outlawed the practice. It continues.

I am not circumsized and damn proud of it. True it does help reduce PE but I consider it a form of protection. And honestly the extra stimulation is quite nice. If the foreskin looks sickening or is causing problems, get rid of it. If not, consider yourself different and it a blessing.

Sorry - shasta, but PEOPLE are more important than any culture.

And the whole cultural identity/sovereign nation argument is BS.

There is absolutely no excuse for this brutal and barbaric practice that MAIMS girls and women.

yahh, social relativism is a horrible way to look at ethics, especially since we are all people, not only that but by taking that stance you are saying that no nation should have stepped in and stopped Hitler, since the genocide was culturally accepted in Germany. just remember the old saying, all that it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing, and that is what you are doing.

[QUOTE=shasta101;260383][SIZE=2]WRT: Female Circumcision

Different cultures with different values, one no less legitimate than any other. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]If that's what they want to do to each other, if that's what their culture dictates to them what's proper, who are we to impose our values on them? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]How would you like it if some outraged foreigners came along and said that it is no longer proper and acceptable to have pierced ears? (Yea I know that I'm going to get hammered on this analogy, but I'm struggling to come up with a better one, sorry in advance - point being someone not of the culture passing judgments on the culture).

All you can do is decide not to comply with those cultural values. To change the culture it has to come from those within the culture to effect the change in the culture. Not externally imposed.

I think that it's a horrible practice as well, and one that I would not condone for my daughters. But they do have a right to conduct their culture as they see fit.
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=2]Getting all up in arms and upset about how another culture conducts itself is not going to lead to any meaningful change in that culture. A change in culture needs to come from inside the culture itself. It cannot be imposed from any external force without exterminating the culture itself. Ethnic cleansing anyone? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]I'm glad to hear that these barbaric and ancient cultural practices are being outlawed. But note that the change, and it'll be change that lasts, is coming from their own people, and from their own culture, and not enforced by an external party.

Mind you, I am in no way justifying any of these terrible practices, but I defend the right of other cultures to determine what their culture is. The freedom of speech comes as a close parallel, not the what, but the right of self determination for that culture.

Think of how poorly the American Indians were treated by the white settlers. Think of all religious based strife through the entire history of human kind where it was blatantly obvious to one culture that the other culture is all wrong and needed 'saving'.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]I'd wager that you'd have similar reaction, rejection, if someone came along and tried to dictate to you what was right and what was wrong if counter to what you believe. Are these people, these cultures not worthy of the same rights?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Cultural relativism:[/SIZE]
[INDENT] [SIZE=2]The reaction to the fact of cultural diversity in which one attempts to understand and judge the behavior of another culture in terms of its standards of good, normal, moral, legal, etc. rather than one's own.
[/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#008000]www.routledge.com/textbooks/9780415485395/glossary.asp[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[/INDENT] [SIZE=2]This is much differ rent than Normative relativism, which is what I believe that you are more trending to:[/SIZE]
[INDENT] [SIZE=2]Normative relativism, further still, is the prescriptive or normative position that, as there is no universal moral standard by which to judge others, we ought to tolerate the behavior of others even when it runs counter to our personal or cultural moral standards. [/SIZE][SIZE=2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism[/SIZE]
[/INDENT] [SIZE=2]I have stated that I very much oppose the practices (so my position is not Normative relativism), but understand that other cultures are different (which would be Cultural relativism).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]I believe that I am making a subtle distinction here, and where you may believe that I support the practice, which I've said a number of times that I don't, I do support the idea that all cultures are each equally valid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]If, on the other hand, you discard Cultural relativism, then you do subscribe to one culture being superior in some way to other cultures, and logically, should impose the superior culture on the people of the other cultures. Is this really what you mean? Is this really what you subscribe to?[/SIZE]

Stop trying to justify butchery by calling it culture and giving it the same status as art, music, philosophy, religion, and architecture.

The Pyramids are culture.
Hacking off a girl's clitoris is NOT culture.

You tell him EEK!!I'm on your side

You can stick your sophomore philosophy (or maybe anthro) course wherever you want except towards me! There are many practices in many cultures that are deemed to be violations of human rights. The International Treaty on the Rights of Women (never ratified by the U.S.) argues for (demands) reproductive rights for women (your last, idiot president thought this meant abortion) and clitoral removal was specifically banned. You are correct in stating that cultural norms change very slowly and individual efforts oftimes end up with untoward results but to ignore the situation makes the whole world complicit. This is not a cultural imperative that contributes to the beauty of cultural diversity. Perhaps it reinforces Durkheim's position that deviance helps to set limits. It ranks right there with slavery (another cultural norm that is now illegal but still practised) and the death penalty (ditto) and removal of body parts as judicial punishment (ditto the ditto).

Ritual mutilation with primitive tools and its predictable results should not be ignored. If the civilized world does not begin now, then when?

Then when? is a good question. Bit of a tight rope between not meddling, respecting the other, and yet standing and supporting your values. I guess that's why we have diplomats for that.

Not soon enough from my perspective, as I agree that it's barbaric. I'm glad to learn that it is on the wane, and outlawed by the people themselves.

Yeah they outlawed it, but do they arrest anyone? No. Therefore they cannot convict anyone. So exactly HOW outlawed is it REALLY?

It isn't.

A unenforced law is not a law.

Give'em time. Cultural practices that are ingrained like this don't go away overnight.