[QUOTE=Quote (territries @ Oct. 28 2004,13:59)]Hi Monie (original poster).
I'm glad to hear that you have come to terms with your bf about his desire for porn. I was wondering if you would ever consider watching it again yourself if you came across a video that was either educational or better made (character developement, storyline...)?

To Everyone.
Regarding whether woman are always looked upon as sex objects by men.... as I see it, one of two scenarios is possible.

1) Man sees woman. Man likes what he sees. Man thinks about possiblities of sex. Woman is sex object in man's mind.
2) Man sees woman. Man doesn't like what he sees. Man looks for something else, unless other reasons such as politeness force him to interract with woman. Woman is not sex object in man's mind.

Neither option precludes the man from eventually admiring other qualities in the woman. In either scenario however, a initial judgement is made. Men will always make that initial judgement, whether it's right or wrong. I challenge the men reading this post to dispute that this is not how they think.

+[/QUOTE]
the thing is that i think that is a generalization!!!

wut if a man sees a woman...he likes wut he sees...he wants to get to know her better?

im sure thats a thought as well!

[QUOTE=Quote (WallyLlama @ June 18 2004,04:31)][quote=monie,June 17 2004,13:22]
If he were looking at a beautiful sunrise and said it reminded him of you, most women would probably say it was romantic. They wouldn't whine that he thinks the sun is more beautiful and doesn't love them. But if he's looking at a beautiful woman (or even a photo of her) and says he's thinking of his woman, she won't believe him. And he's not allowed to enjoy that beauty, even from a distance.

Guys are better at "depersonalizing" sex. They're also more visual than women. (Now those are generalities and there are exceptions, so no flaming me, please.)

Guys do not look at porn and think "wow she is much more attractive than what I've got and I wish she was my girlfriend." Guys look at porn, feel their dick getting hard and think, "oh this feels good." The image isn't going to the heart, it's going to the dick.[/QUOTE]
Wally hit the mark in regards to my feeling.

If I see a beautiful women I take a look to appreciate her beauty. I'm not thinking about my wife at all, not even comparing. It's the same when I see a sunrise or the fall foliage we are having here now. There is alot of beauty in this world and I try to appreciate it when I can.

What some see as beauty can be considered as porn by another. I like playboy centerfolds and appreciate the womens physical beauty. (During this apprecation my dick may get hard and I become horny, so what) I don't appreciate "Cum Jungle Gang Rape" type stuff because there is no beauty there in the eye of this beholder.

I think my wife understands this because she knows I download some porn and she has even told me she's done it as well when I'm not around. I didn't feel threatened. We don't do this around each other though, it makes us self concious and defeats the purpose.

We've even confessed to each other "You weren't home and I was horny so I downloaded and masturbated". We both just shrug it off. Maybe we're just more secure than most but I don't think she's comparing me to her vibrator and she knows that I don't compare her appearence to other beautiful women.

[QUOTE=Quote (demonbuttercup @ Oct. 16 2004,17:56)][QUOTE=Quote (girl12 @ Oct. 16 2004,17:53)][QUOTE=Quote (territries @ Oct. 15 2004,15:12)][/QUOTE]
To men, women are sex objects.
It's always been that way and always will be. [QUOTE/][/QUOTE]
should it be that way? not ALL men i know think of women as sex objects.
what about the intellectual side of women? women have brains, we have feelings, we have needs. so men should just see us as sex objects?

that is DEFINITELY degrading to women who might want to be seen seriously. i respect if some women just want to be seen as a sex object for a man but most of the women i know including myself would like to be taken seriously and listened to.

-mariah
I agree girl12. after I read that, I felt pretty sh*tty. lol.
like that is all Im good for apparently.[/QUOTE]

You've been instructed by another woman that women are sex objects.

They ARE.

That is NOT to say they are JUST sex objects.

This lesson in logic was brought to you by a man.  You really shouldn't complain of women being stereotyped as unecessarily emotional and wanting in logic when in fact you, personally, reinforce that very stereotype by illogically taking offence at a factually correct statement.

Jaybee.

good post edj.

i think the reason women groom themselves so much is that society has taught us to be self conscious and look great all the time!
of course we choose to look sexy a lot, that does not mean that sex is all we're good for. it makes me sad that there probably ARE women who want to be seen as sex objects, although i respect that personal preference.
its just that i dont think that as soon as a man sees a woman, he should think, SEX!!!
(dont say its male instinct either.....i will have to beat u up)

-mariah

The proposition that:

Men only see women as sex objects...since forever..

It leads me to wonder. Girls and women spend much time in grooming themselves. They can even find a basic look which can be altered for work, evening events, at home, school etc
with just some changes in jewelery, clothing, makeup, and some accessories. Women understand all this but guys don't
have a clue as it always happens away from their realm.

Most guys are absolutely dumbfounded at the vast variety of shades of lipstick or hair color.....let alone makeup powders, eyeliners, false eyelashes, not to mention all the ear rings.
Then their is clothing....and lots of it and don't even mention shoes.

Now when guys walk into a place such as a night club......they see girls or women from across the floor and it is
almost like a candy store for them. They have no idea about what is on the "inside" of the girls in terms of intellegence etc. Just the physical appeal. Is it not a logical.....that the guys first reaction is a physical one? That guys may be more overwhelmed by what the females are so accustomed to and take for granted when they see it on each other.

So.....why do girls/women think guys only see women as sex objects ? Would they see feminist as sex objects?(given their
ideas on female grooming)

eDJ

[QUOTE=Quote (territries @ Oct. 15 2004,15:12)][/QUOTE]
To men, women are sex objects.
It's always been that way and always will be. [QUOTE/][/QUOTE]
should it be that way? not ALL men i know think of women as sex objects.
what about the intellectual side of women? women have brains, we have feelings, we have needs. so men should just see us as sex objects?

that is DEFINITELY degrading to women who might want to be seen seriously. i respect if some women just want to be seen as a sex object for a man but most of the women i know including myself would like to be taken seriously and listened to.

-mariah

[QUOTE=Quote (girl12 @ Oct. 16 2004,17:53)][QUOTE=Quote (territries @ Oct. 15 2004,15:12)][/QUOTE]
To men, women are sex objects.
It's always been that way and always will be. [QUOTE/][/QUOTE]
should it be that way? not ALL men i know think of women as sex objects.
what about the intellectual side of women? women have brains, we have feelings, we have needs. so men should just see us as sex objects?

that is DEFINITELY degrading to women who might want to be seen seriously. i respect if some women just want to be seen as a sex object for a man but most of the women i know including myself would like to be taken seriously and listened to.

-mariah[/QUOTE]
I agree girl12. after I read that, I felt pretty sh*tty. lol.
like that is all Im good for apparently.

sori tessie didnt mean to offend u.

i just mean that porn and soaps r USUALLY for 2 different reasons...if u know wut i mean..

[QUOTE=Quote (territries @ Oct. 15 2004,15:12)].....In closing, I want to propose an albternate reason as to why some women object to porn. Could it be something so simple as that they are insecure about their own appearance or lovemaking abilities?[/QUOTE]
you absolutely nailed it!!!!!!!! ive spent decades alone on my own crusade i am thrilled to have finally found another gal who sees eye to eye with on this topic!!!!

i wont argue that at one point in my life i was envious of the large boobed cheerleaders, jelious i couldnt go on the school trip to Rome, wished i could be and do and have whatever it was that i wasnt or couldnt or didnt....

i somehow got off of course with their track of life which slowly took me further and further away from the gravitational force which kept them in a world where misconception had them all believing their common mass must always be revolved around the popular group inside the inner circle.

i obtained values and priorities and goals and inspiration and limitations and i became whole and am now settled quite comfortably with myself living right in the middle of a life which revolves around me.

why worry about the likes and dislikes, possessions or attributes or the speed at which others are going? they're who need be jelious of you and envious of the happiness you make for youself. stay concentrated on your efforts at keeping a comfortable pace and stay focused on keeping yourself together and right on track. and always be proud of how secure you are with yourself.

I actually see nothing wrong with using porn to spice things up. It's just that for me, it gets boring quickly, because there
is no storyline. If there were character development, then I would probably watch more often.

Regarding the arguement that porn is degrading to women...
I just don't see it that way. To men, women are sex objects.
It's always been that way and always will be. Porn graphically shows us this fact, which we all already know to be true. If porn didn't exist, men would still fantasize about doing the things depicted in the porn movies. My husband will freely admit that when we first met, he immediately thought about what it would be like to #### me. He didn't think about how smart I am, or any of my other positive nonsexual qualities. Initially, I was simply a potential conquest...a sex object. The question is, did he think of me that way because of watching porn or was it instead a male biological instinct? I believe it was the latter.

In closing, I want to propose an alternate reason as to why some women object to porn. Could it be something so simple as that they are insecure about their own appearance or lovemaking abilities?

Since the early eighties many of the porn movies have been written and directed by women so they would appeal to a womens audience. The sales figures later showed a large percent of the movies were rented by women in the morning or early afternoon to have ready for when hubby came home.

In the movie "Boogie Nights" I believe one of the characters represened Amber Lynn one of the early porn stars turned director producer.

eDJ

Yes Tessie I do so agree. I've been around a few "rules girls" myself....but didn't stay long. I concluded they should just go sit together into old age, learn to crochet and leave the guys alone.

I've made the point to women I've known about mens visual porn and womens(guilty pleasures) soaps, gothics, chat rooms, and sex toys. Men are generally more visual and images of a porn naturally appeal to them. In many instances it is how and where they will learn about sex. Unfortunately porn images tend to only stress the mechanics of sex, thus guys are more prone to have a different emotional experience with sex than the girls/women. When the boys mastrubate with an open porn mag they may have their fantasies with a passive image and develop a rather one sided sexual identity. Many young women sense this and attribute it to porn and want a prohibition of his looking at it. They want him to relate more to them on a deeper personal level while having sex. Often girls complain their guy is machine like, has sex with them, and then rolls over and falls asleep. So what's he to do. It is either porn or locker room talk for the guys
until they find a loving mate who can talk with them and cultivate these missing qualities. Yet if she exploits him with the skills she learned watching soaps, etc.....is she any better
than he is accused of being by his porn?

I've talked with librarians who indicate that libraries and discount stores are filled with some of the most rank and lurid
paperbacks you would ever want to see if you only opened the covers and read. When she sees groups on the war path about porn, strip bars, peep shows, and such...she wonders why they don't take on WallyMart and others for the paperbacks they publically display there, which she suggest are just as lascivious.

The soap's will exploit jealousy, manipulation, abuse, deceit, and a host of other more base female personality traits and showcase them for young impressionable females to emulate.
I can tell you there are guys who will secretly look for evidence of gothic paperbacks and soap operas with a new girl friend.(and if he doesn't his mom may try to sniff it out when she meets you). Consider this as you make judgements of his habits.

My own feelings of porn is that both parties need to discuss their feelings and issues with each others as they get to know each other. When people first meet and are new to each other they are on their best behavior, but as time goes on and they let their hair down.....these matters will present themselves. In porn, there are many practices which may look good on screen.....but in real life would be hazardous to ones health or welfare. Those in porn are being paid to do whatever the script calls for no matter how unnatural it would be to a sensible girls nature. Likewise in the script for a soap, the story line in a gothic, or erotica paperback.

In the end it a shared experience between two consenting people who care or have feelings for each other. If you don't
have any feelings for each other and have sex anyway....you may be doing porn without even realizing it....so why put on pretenses?

eDJ

You see territries I would disagree with that. Oh you might be right about many women. But when I watch porn I don't give two figs for the plot line nor do I want one. I just want to see the sex and the hotter the better. Its to serve a purpose and that is to turn me on.

I think the problem most women have with porn is that is so poorly done. No plot, bad acting, just sex. Women might feel differently if thier favorite soaps became sexually explicit, and they cared about the characters/actors. I can't recommend
a single porn movie that even comes close to the production values of a typical soap.

A compromise in this area for a couple might be to only watch
educational or instructional adult videos. I have seen a few and I don't consider them demeaning.

[QUOTE=Quote (girl12 @ Oct. 13 2004,12:19)]well there are a lot of stereotypes being used here. guys watch porn, while girls watch soaps.
how is that supposed to be fun for the girl?[/QUOTE]
Mariah, I have watched my ABC soaps for the last 25 years. They can be plenty fun let me tell you.  

I don't really have anything new to add to this topic. It has to come down to the couple and what they can agree on. I will say that it annoys me somewhat to see a man completely insensitive to their woman if the woman is very much against it and is not willing to respect her and make some sort of agreeable compromise.

On the other side it annoys me to see women who don't like it for whatever reason and thinks that their men should just give it up for them and that is that.

I don't feel anyone should have the total say. That is why it is called compromise. Why is it that women so often feel their feelings are more important then that of their men? I once new a girl that let her man watch porn but only if the women in it were uglier then she was.

All feeling should be respected and if they can't do that agreeably then there will be problems in the relationship.

well there are a lot of stereotypes being used here. guys watch porn, while girls watch soaps.
how is that supposed to be fun for the girl?
i think the main thing is society telling women to keep hush hush about their sexuality and dont have fun, basically.
if u have noticed....if a guy sleeps around...people in the press will say "well hes a guy, he has a penis, he thinks about sex a lot" on the contrary if a woman sleeps around, u hear people calling her a slut....they dont say "shes a girl, she has a vagina...she thinks about sex too!"

i think the main problem with the bf looking at porn and the GF getting offended, is usually the lack of communication maybe? i dunno maybe not but it is a possibility. if a gf is upset about her bf looking at porn, she should not keep quiet about it and just say...oh, its a guy thing. because thats the stereotype and the REAL answer is to talk to the bf about how it makes u sad and then compromise.

-mariah

Lilly made a good point, Why don't us as men complaine about our wifes/gfs watching their soaps and expecting us to be like the guys on then. Coming home all clean and full of energy and with flowers and enen reservations for dinner.

I know i have watch some porn and will again but only to see what posisitons and ways of having sex, that can inprove my love making to my partner.

Just my 2 cents worth

my g/f is the same way. me looking at porn makes her feel insecure. we don't do it because we're not satisfied with what we have, i don't really know why we do it. but we do, and its the hardest thing in the world not to. i know that in my situation, i wouldn't trade my g/f for any other girl in the world! she completely satisfies me in every way but for some reason, i still have the urge to look at porn. i really don't think you have anything to worry about.

very enlightening post melis5a.
i agree the statement "ALL men need/want porn" is pretty broad and not always true. maybe its a basic stereotype that guys are lead to believe they should watch porn b/c its what every red blooded american male does.

after what happened to you, i think you have the right to have the feelings you do. its definetly a different situation than for a girl who's just jealous or insecure, there is a much deeper reason behind your choice.

My boyfriend and I just went through this and I think I agree with a lot of what is being said but it is a sick sad world when expecting your partner to respect feelings, even they may be rooted in insecurity, is seen as just not possible because they are men and all men have the right and biological makeup to look at other naked women. All my life I'd had a difficult time trying to figure out what my role as a female was in this society. Then when I was raped at 17, I did a lot of reading up on mentalities that support such behavior. I'm not saying porn fans are rapists, but they are supporting an industry that under the guise of "entertainment" exploit women. I personally feel the way I do because of my own experiences, not neccessarily because it's what I feel all women should feel.I am against my boyfriend watching porn and we've discussed that he's always known it as normal because of what society tells him. He's a man, he must watch boobies. It was difficult enough for me to be comfortable sexually with anyone, and when I am with him I'm not only comfortable, I feel amazing, strong, valued. SO when I ran across his stash online, I broke down. As unfair as it may be, what ensued was somewhat of an ultamatum. I can't be with someone who watches porn. It makes me feel ill, it makes me feel like I'm just a body, meat. If it is infact true that all men are entitled to it, then I choose to be alone. I inturn asked him to be honest with himself and me. If it's something that he really views as harmless and he sees nothing wrong with it, then say so, so I can move on, because I cannot ask him to change his values based on my issues. I won't end up with him 5 years down the road swearing that he doesn't, but find out that he does. I know this post will be long because I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. It's taken me five years to be able to put into words how I feel. I did not ask to be born a woman. the values places on a girl growing up in this society have been contradictory and vague. Be a pretty little girl, and if you're not pretty, be smart or amusing. But don't be too good looking, or vocal, or funny unless you want other girls to dislike you. Women are seen as smarter, but remember that boys will be boys. The message that wmoen get through the media is look nice but not too nice, because then you're asking for "it". What this society tells me I'm supposed to be makes me ill and it's difficult for me to NOT be crazy in a world where generally men make more moeny, make more decisions and certain men deem themselves by default, superior to wmoen. This is what I gathered before I was raped. Then it because about sex a lot of the sex industry is about power, control, and ownership of women's bodies. Just exactly what am I supposed to be? Strong, but not too masculine, smart but not too proud. The perfect daughter, girlfriend, wife, mother. How can I NOT be concerned when women are constantly intimidated, pushed, shoved, raped and killed by men of the same mentality that it's "just a body". THis is why it is not just a picture of a joke to me. It is my grasp at reality that I simply cannot cope with nor can I escape from. I could be "one of the guys" except I have a female body so I'm too feminist to be comfortable around. I could buy into everything and be "one of the girls", but I'd just be fueling that same engine that I can't stomach. I very badly just want to be a person with ideas and thoughts. Not a body first, and then whatever I say or do. Looking at pictures out of boredom is the most harmless end of the spectrum. But it is the mentality that it stands for that makes me cringe deep down. It's most certainly viewed as normal. But so was slavery.

Someone earlier touched on what I was thinking as I was reading this thread. Why don't we ever see posts from men freaking out that their gf/wife was drooling over Brad Pitt in a movie. They are not saying "doesn't she love me? I look nothing like Brad Pitt. I don't have Antonio Bandero's ass. Whatever will I do??"

That, my dear friends, is because as women we are royalled screwed up in the head. Yes, it's very true. lol. And maybe some women are reading this and denying it! We are constantly shown what is pretty and what is not. In movies, magazines, porn videos, skin mags, etc. Very rarely do any of us amount to these women.

Men are visual creatures. They love to look at beautiful women. They love to look at some pretty tan legs walking by, a tight t-shirt over perky breasts, long hair swishing as they walk by, etc. Does it mean they will run over there and hump their leg? Nope. Does it mean they look at you and say "hey, where are your perky breasts?" Nope.

In my experience and in talking with guy friends they are very happy to see A naked woman. The soft skin, the totally different body, the way it moves, etc. When you're riding them, they are NOT thinking "oh, her breasts are really starting to sag". They are thinking "niiice, she's naked, we're having sex, this is great" lol.

I think there needs to be something invented in society to give women more self confidence, because it seems like I encounter a lacking of it in almost every girl I meet. Beautiful girls that think their hips are too wide, their boobs aren't large enough, etc..

When my boyfriend and I are together I sometimes catch him glancing at a pretty girl walking by. But he also caught me checking out the hot, muscular, tan guys building the new walgreen's the other day too! He says I'm beautiful and I believe him! I think he could not possibly be any sexier. I may be faithful, but I'm not dead!

Hey, let him watch porn if he wants to. I can think of worse things he could be doing to get off. And he may learn some new moves. Prohibiting something you originally said was okay, can be a slippery subject. As long as he's not looking at naked kids or something very creepy, he's a normal hot blooded man.

The thing is, that your boyfriend is being a guy. That's what guys do, all guys look at porn. Even if guys have a wife or a boyfriend, everyone looks at porn. It's not like your boyfriend is going to cheat on you because he won't. He threw out all of his porn because he did it for you as it was his way of showing that he loves you. Since you won't let him look at porn videos, that's why he started looking up porn on the computer. It has nothing to do with your boyfriend NOT liking your naked body, I'm sure he probably loves your naked body. The guy is doing what he likes to do.

I mean what else is he going to masturbate at when you're not around him? When he has no porn at all and when you're not around him, he won't feel horny on anything when he wants to masturbate on something.

Your sister is right that you should let him do porn.

Guys are just doing their thing.

You're not wrong, Experimenter!

And a search about these forums would lead one to discover that Monie changed her perspective on porn.

All that said, I'm going back to mine. LOL

The porn issues....Well, my husband and I have recently purchased our first video. We have been married for 5 years now and have 2 small children. It's hard to keep up the sex life in our case, and for us, watching an erotic video together sort of gets the sparks going. It's not about what the people in the video look like, it's just a stimulant. I think you asked if it was possible to look at someone and imagine your partner instead. I believe it is very possible. I don't get turned on by the guys in the video. I don't know them, I don't love them, there is no emotional connection. I think (guys tell me if I'm wrong) it is the same for guys.
At the beginning of our relationship, I had no interest in porn, and certainly didn't want any in our home. However, 5 years and 2 kids later, my view on the subject has done a 180. Erotic videos can also be a great help as far as ideas, new positions etc.

Jaybee...

There's no big secret, nor a need for an unmoderated forum to explain it. GUYS ARE DIFFERENT THAN WOMEN. Period.

I don't want to lump 100% of the entire male population into this overt generalization, but we are partially driven by our chemichal makeup. Our hormones. We have an almost insatiable apetite for sexual stimulus... but not only that... for guys, there is (mostly) a lesser sense of "emotion" tied to sex.

For women, there is usually an emotional tie to the act of sex. For most men, it's a means to an end... the orgasm. That's not to say we're incapable of BEING emotional or enjoying foreplay and making our partners (very) satisfied... but there is an aspect of sex to us that's all-about the "finish".

When guys generally look at porn in magazines or movies, it's usually just to aid in the stimulus to achieve the orgasm. The women mean nothing... there is no "comparison" going on (at least not for me) and it really is just a way to stimulate that part of our brain.

We joke about it all the time in life... men are always getting the negative rap for always being horny, etc. But the truth is... it's not our fault. Heck, it's not EVEN a fault... it's a fact of nature. We desire sex a LOT. We are very interested and driven by sexual activity.

Do not confuse that lust and sex drive (at least not ALWAYS) with a man's desire to cheat or be unfaithful. In my "over-35-years" on this planet, I have NEVER, EVER cheated on any girl / woman I was seeing. Not once. Not a KISS... nothing.

But yet, I also am EXTREMELY driven by the hormone and enjoy the occasional porn... with or without my fiancé.

---------

Let's reverse the scenario.

We're talking about a subject where both sexes view a topic from TOTALLY different angles. I'm going to attempt to flip it so you can understand.

Ladies... you KNOW guys love sex and it's an important part of a relationship to us. But to the ladies... I believe in most cases the connection and emotional aspect is a strong part of it.

Ladies... what if your man caught you reading romance novels and flipped-out on you... "What, you don't get enough romance from me...? You need to get it from a book...?. I know it's not the same thing... I don't think there ARE any exact-opposite scenarious that I can think of... but you might get the point.

Something that is harmless to YOU in YOUR head gets misunderstood by your partner as a problem with the relationship. Porn is not evil... porn is not cheating... porn is not a result of a desire to be with someone else... it's JUST a means of entertainment that most males enjoy because we are very interested in sex. That's all! We're not bad people, we're not horn-dogs, we're not sleazy... we just enjoy sex on a much different level than women. There's a lot of emotional detatchment that occurs.

Anyhow... it's early in the a.m. and it looks like I've written too much. I'm too tired to even go re-read what I wrote, so I hope it's all spelled right and worded okay. Later ...

Why is it that when only one partner in a relationship has a healthy appetite for porn, it is invariably only the female that has ANY kind of problem with it?

Why do you never hear of guys being insecure about their partners ogling pics of Brad Pitt/Tom Cruise etc?

Monie love, we guys like porn because we were pretty much starved of sex between 13 and 16, and even at 16 it's pretty tough to get someone to sleep with you.

Guys, I wish I could talk to Monie in person, 'Dutch Uncle' style. I can see there's a lot of basic stuff we don't talk about on moderated boards, and remains largely unspoken in society at large, that she needs to be made aware of, which is why we're all treading on eggshells.

Monie, if you want the TRUTH of the matter, at least, a guys honest version with no agenda, send me a message and I'll do it.

JayBee.

I have to say that I've been having the same issues as Monie here. The only thing is, I have been told all my life how beautiful I am, that I should be a model. So it's not an insecurity issue for me in the appearance aspect.

Basically, I have the shits of fighting about the whole thing, b/c at first it was an issue of 'respect' to me. I considered it 'cheating in your head'. I am an extremely spiritual person, and I guess that I always wanted that 'soulmate' connection, where it was just him and I, sort of like in a dreamworld, with no need for other people or other sorts of stimulation besides each other. I guess I am living with a fairytale mentality on this. Very juvenile I suppose for someone my age. Quite frankly I have the complete shits of obsessing over it. I guess what it all comes down to is: "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em."

Which i recently started doing. He came home and it was ME viewing some nice pics of hot, hard guys. I even saved a few. I also took the block off the cable box. I have to say, that just by doing these things, there seems to be some sort of fun spark starting up again, maybe b/c I'm trying to be more accepting of him, and maybe he views this as a loving thing for me to do given the way that I used to feel. (and sorta still do, but i'm workin on it) My heart goes out to ya Monie, I know how you feel. AND I'm about 15 years your senior. So it's not like it's an age issue for girls.
I'd really like to thank the guys here for replying, esp Wally, he really puts things into a perspective that can be easier for a woman to understand, if that's possible. lol When I die, I am definitely going to have a word with our Creator on the reason for the differences between men and women

Why watch them without him?..lol...with him will be more fun...

Thanks for being open to new information and different thinking, Monie. I don't know how else to say that without sounding patronizing. LOL

Sometimes things just are what they are, there's not a lot of deep hidden meaning.

Wally

hey monie!

it shouldnt be just something a guy does. it isnt. when people say that men are more sexual than women it is just an excuse for them to be perverted assholes. if he wants to be with u he needs to meet ur standards or even better....exceed them! u dont have to accept his porn, in fact u shouldnt, especially if it bothers u!

hope i helped. best wishes.

I'm with wally on this. Clearly he loves you - if he didn't he wouldn't have moved in together with you. Also, he seems to have made a significant effort to reduce his viewing of porn.

Now, that said, asking a guy to give up porn is like asking him NOT to breathe.

The reason he kept looking at the porn was because, despite his "purging" all the other porn, you did say [QUOTE=Quote ]he took this to the extreme and said he wasn't gonna watch any anymore, so he threw it all out (with the exception of a few tapes and some mags[/QUOTE]. The fact that you did keep a few mag's and tapes sent the message that SOME was ok - MIXED SIGNALS.

You're in a tough situation here because he's already tried to go "cold turkey" and coudn't do it. You got upset, he said he'd not do it again, and yet he's still got pics on his computer.

My advice - LET IT GO. Leave the subject alone for a while. History, and human nature, tells us the more you "forbid" something, the more appealing it becomes.

Like you have said in some of your replies, its YOUR INSECURITY, that is driving this. If you're insecurity is perceived as misplaced jealousy for something that is truely harmless - you will risk undermining yoru relationship.

Le it go!

[QUOTE=Quote (monie @ June 17 2004,13:22)]how could he see a girl who was much more attractive then me, and actually be thinking of me? did he actually want me or was i just there??
to the guys reading this, is that true? when a guy looks at porn, does he really think of his girl? even if the girls is completely different than his girl?[/QUOTE]
I'm probably going to hate myself for trying to explain this. LOL I sometimes think that the differences between men and women in regards to porn are genetic and we simply haven't found a language to explain them.

In a word, "Yes," what your boyfriend said can be true for a guy.

I think we sometimes try to put structure and rationality on this and it doesn't apply. Fantasy is much like dreaming... it's not something easily explained or justified. If your guy has erotic dream and it includes someone else does that mean he thinks less of you?

If he were looking at a beautiful sunrise and said it reminded him of you, most women would probably say it was romantic. They wouldn't whine that he thinks the sun is more beautiful and doesn't love them. But if he's looking at a beautiful woman (or even a photo of her) and says he's thinking of his woman, she won't believe him. And he's not allowed to enjoy that beauty, even from a distance.

Guys are better at "depersonalizing" sex. They're also more visual than women. (Now those are generalities and there are exceptions, so no flaming me, please.)

Guys do not look at porn and think "wow she is much more attractive than what I've got and I wish she was my girlfriend." Guys look at porn, feel their dick getting hard and think, "oh this feels good." The image isn't going to the heart, it's going to the dick.

A lot of women don't seem to understand that. But then, a lot of guys don't understand why women feel threatened when we look. If we can't understand it, then at some level, we ought to accept it.

[QUOTE=Quote (monie @ June 11 2004,12:51)]...it made me very upset and made me feel like i wasnt good enough. what should i do? i want him to understand my point of view on this. please help.[/QUOTE]
If it wouldn't sound flip, I'd reply that what you should do is learn to feel that you're good enough!

You want him to understand your point of view... a point of view that apparently has undergone some serious changes during the short history of your relationship! It sounds like you went from watching it with him, to letting him watch it without you, to now wanting him to have no part of it, no way, nowhere, nohow.

It's one thing to negotiate "rules" in a relationship; it's quite another to keep changing them and then be upset with the partner who doesn't keep them.

I'm probably sounding a little harsh about this, but IMHO, this is a disaster in the making. If you are looking for a long relationship with this guy, you might want to consider how you're coming across to him. It sounds like he's been more than patient and cooperative over the "porn issue."

On the other hand, it also sounds like you haven't considered what's his point of view is - or maybe he's not allowed to have one?

Again, my apologies if I sound harsh, but I can tell you that if someone was doing this to me, I'd be gone in a heartbeat. If you want to keep this guy around, I think you need to get the "porn issue" into perspective. I'd also suggest considering whether or not porn is the issue.

Wally

Hmm this is difficult. There will always be that fine line in a relationship between letting him have his sexual freedom and also making u happy and not insecure. You gotta tell him how u feel and stand up for it but then again realize he is a guy. Both of u need to talk about this and come to an equal agreement both of you are happy about. Like say, i don't mind u watching porn just not all the time and just not around me. Tell him u r against with the playboy thing and make him realize that. Just really stand up for yourself. Like make up a file on the computer that is all his and that u don't know about so that u don't accidently come across it and feel ashamed or hurt. Just both of u need to sit down and talk about this and coem to an agreement and realize what the real problem is. Liek are you upset cuz u don't feel like the porn stash gets more attention then u, if so u need to make him realize his actions and tell him u feel insecure. Just talk u will through it and tell me what happens if u need moer help

[QUOTE=Quote (lilly2279 @ July 24 2004,14:36)]Someone earlier touched on what I was thinking as I was reading this thread.  Why don't we ever see posts from men freaking out that their gf/wife was drooling over Brad Pitt in a movie.  They are not saying "doesn't she love me?  I look nothing like Brad Pitt.  I don't have Antonio Bandero's ass.  Whatever will I do??"[/QUOTE]
LOL
good point Lilly
its like most guys are happy to find a girl that likes porn and get off on the fact of her watching it... alone or with them.
maybe its just b/c that usually varies from the norm of a lot of girls.
you'd think they'd be like, oh no my penis is way smaller than that guys on the video... my g/f is going to leave me for that guy.
i guess since men and women are from different planets...lol.

[QUOTE=Quote (territries @ Oct. 20 2004,14:44)]Hopefully, this is a feminine advantage, as we are able to more quickly evaluate the total person instead of just the body.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you confuse ability with cold, hard necessity.

Jaybee.

In an earlier post I said that to men, woman are sex objects.
A couple of women seemd to think I was incorrect.
I wish to clarify...

Women are sex objects to men, however they can also be other things, given the chance and time. Upon first glance,
we (women) are judged (often harshly) for our physical beauty. If we pass judgement, then we are sex objects. If we are found to be unattractive, then we are not sex objects. I don't believe that our culture has conditioned men to think this way. I believe it is biological which is why I will
not be critical of men for watching porn.

One other point. I also believe that we women go thru much
of the same thought process that men do when we initially meet a man. It's just not as stong of a biological instinct
as it is with men. Hopefully, this is a feminine advantage, as we are able to more quickly evaluate the total person instead of just the body.

Hi Monie (original poster).
I'm glad to hear that you have come to terms with your bf about his desire for porn. I was wondering if you would ever consider watching it again yourself if you came across a video that was either educational or better made (character developement, storyline...)?

To Everyone.
Regarding whether woman are always looked upon as sex objects by men.... as I see it, one of two scenarios is possible.

1) Man sees woman. Man likes what he sees. Man thinks about possiblities of sex. Woman is sex object in man's mind.
2) Man sees woman. Man doesn't like what he sees. Man looks for something else, unless other reasons such as politeness force him to interract with woman. Woman is not sex object in man's mind.

Neither option precludes the man from eventually admiring other qualities in the woman. In either scenario however, a initial judgement is made. Men will always make that initial judgement, whether it's right or wrong. I challenge the men reading this post to dispute that this is not how they think.

+

[QUOTE=Quote (Jaybee @ Oct. 20 2004,09:51)][QUOTE=Quote (demonbuttercup @ Oct. 16 2004,17:56)][QUOTE=Quote (girl12 @ Oct. 16 2004,17:53)][QUOTE=Quote (territries @ Oct. 15 2004,15:12)][/QUOTE]
To men, women are sex objects.
It's always been that way and always will be. [QUOTE/][/QUOTE]
should it be that way? not ALL men i know think of women as sex objects.
what about the intellectual side of women? women have brains, we have feelings, we have needs. so men should just see us as sex objects?

that is DEFINITELY degrading to women who might want to be seen seriously. i respect if some women just want to be seen as a sex object for a man but most of the women i know including myself would like to be taken seriously and listened to.

-mariah
I agree girl12. after I read that, I felt pretty sh*tty. lol.
like that is all Im good for apparently.[/QUOTE]

You've been instructed by another woman that women are sex objects.

They ARE.

That is NOT to say they are JUST sex objects.

This lesson in logic was brought to you by a man.  You really shouldn't complain of women being stereotyped as unecessarily emotional and wanting in logic when in fact you, personally, reinforce that very stereotype by illogically taking offence at a factually correct statement.

Jaybee.[/QUOTE]
you cant speak for ur whole gender!!
of course some people think of women as sex objects...it is my OPINION that that is wrong! it is ALSO a generalization that men think of women as sex objects. of course some men do, some dont. you and ur friends may think that way of course! believe it or not some women think of men as sex objects too! i am not going to say 'to women, men r sex objects...'

that statement is factually correct for whom?

-mariah