im curious what does she do for you? why do you keep going back to her? all i see in this above post is that you giving and her only taking.

Are you kidding me? Your in a toxic relationship and rather than break up with her you get engaged. You just answered your own question. If you realized grabbing a burner on the stove leads to burning your hand, do you stop touching it or just tape your hand down?

Leave. Get out. Go. Break up with her. Dump her. Hasta la vista baby. GTFO. Take care now, bye bye then.

Are you sticking with a toxic relationship because you know that you have few alternative options?

If so, learn how to cold approach, meet and greet women so the next time you get into a relationship it is with the best woman from a pool of options.

Dear Brenden,
I'm sorry to say it just doesn't work that way. You can't change someone by proposing. Nor will she change miraculously after you've married. She will not suddenly learn to have a serious relationship once you've signed the contract. Whether in a relationship or marriage these boundaries are for you two to set, agree on and stick to. It seems to me like you made a jump in the dark, cause your feeling of love for her is still greater than your feeling of hurt.

Yet; is this true? Please search your heart. What catches my eye is how negative your primary feelings are towards her. Just read your own post again and see. It tells you a lot when the first words that come to mind are those like yours. I fear that can't be made up by "love". As you try to get over the past things she's done to you, she seems to continue hurting you. You can't get to the healing-part when she continuous to poke your soft spots. Or reversed speaking; when you let her.

It seems to me like you are trying to cage a very free-spirited bird. You either get used to living with her flying on and off. Accepting it, not hurt by it. Or you decide to end this relationship. It's your decision. Sad to say, I fear you're only causing yourself sorrow when choosing the first.

You fell in love with one woman; you are now with a different woman. The earlier you end it, the better (and easier).

OMG - calling Sir Galahad - you're suit needs cleaning!

You can NOT 'save' this woman from the consequences of her actions no matter how much you 'love' her because she doesn't respect you or give a damn about you or about what you think or want. You are merely a convenience.

Grow a set and get out of this relationship even if the alternative is becoming a monk.

So Brenden will continue to cling to hope that somehow, some when this lady will FINALLY come to realise what a sterling character he is and will love him in return.

It is a favorite male fantasy. He watches her fooling around with 'bad boys' saying to himself "if only - I'd treat her right".

Yes, we all need to be needed but you have to be SENSIBLE about it and not pursue forlorn hopes.

Because he's probably ignoring Ms. Right who is even now looking at him saying herself "if only - I'd treat him right."

"Letting go" is never easy but making such difficult decisions and sticking with them is the mark of an adult.

So you would marry her, build house, family, and financial life together, and then get rid of her later? All your doing is making it harder for yourself in the long run. You cut the bull and end this. You have everything already telling you to leave. She is NOT your world. Look out your bedroom window. That is your world. you have your own job, friends, family. That is all YOUR world. Not some woman who couldn't be damned about you.

Grow some man and get out.

my dad has a saying
"wish in one hand, s***t in the other"
your gonna get the s***t long before your wish materializes... though granted my dad is a total jerk

EDITED: REMOVED EXPLETIVES.
PLEASE DO NOT USE FOUR LETTER WORDS,
OUR WEBSITE HAS HIGHER STANDARDS.

MODERATOR 3

Did you ever think that your Dad once did as you are now doing?
Held on too long? Bitterness is his reward. Don't make it yours as well.

Welcome, Brenden, to the SI101 Board and its Forums. I hope you will enjoy participating. Please begin by familiarizing yourself with the FAQs, the Posting Guidelines section, and especially the Index, all found at the top of the main screen. The Index contains links to helpful informative insightful, as well as how-to articles that discuss the most common questions and concerns people ask about. In addition, if you click on the site's Home Page, you will find even more information.

I recommend that you read the articles listed under the heading:
SUGGESTIONS FOR DATING

Here is a copy from a recent post: "Dating does not begin and end with the first warm body who expresses an interest in us. There are three good reasons for dating; first, learning social skills, having someone to accompany you while having fun at social events, and, learning more about people, their character, likes, dislikes, quirks, morals, values, goals, etc., in order to learn what you want in a prospective mate, and to better recognize when Mr. (Ms) Right does come along."

> I've been in a toxic relationship for 4yrs,

A simple question comes to mind--WHY?

> we broke up and made up about 4 or 5 times in those 4yrs, breaks ranging between 1week and 4months. But somehow we always found our way back to each other.

So, every ~9.6 months or less something serious enough to break up happened. It seems to me that common sense isn't common enough. I recommend that the two of you read this article:
Confrontations-- About Fighting, Arguing & Negotiating
How to give your partner the most of what s/he wants without giving up the core of what you want.
Or--making life better and more peaceful.

> The recent break up I felt we were constantly defying each other because we had no real form of commitment from each other.

Commitment or not, "defying" each other equates to a power struggle for one or both of you to be right about some issue. Please read the article, above. For there to be a change or for some activity to occur, there must be two "yeses". For one of you to say "no" puts the brakes on.

> So I decided to propose, maybe a serious commitment will instill more trust and set new boundries.

Commitment does not equate to trust. You have to believe that, unless and until your partner gives indications of behaving any other way than honorable and respectful, you can and should trust him. Although trust is earned, in order to initiate trust in the beginning, each of us must give a little to the other person sufficient to get the relationship started and off the ground. That done, the rest is earned through the behavior, deeds, and, accomplishments we give to each other.

It is counter productive to have the attitude that because an -ex proved to be bad, all guys/women therefore must be suspect. (How often have you heard a woman declare: "I don't trust any man?") This is saying in essence that I will trust you only if you successfully meet the following conditions (A, B, C, etc.), first. More often than not, what happens next is that whether he fails to meet one or more of those expectations or not, you will continually test him to see if he will eventually fail. The result is relationship stagnation.

> But this hasn't happened. From my side I have always been 100% commited, but from her side I don't think she knows what a serious relationship involves. There's no concideration for me, as her fiancee, no exclucivity and she has very little boundries. I thought my proposal would change this but it hasn't.

A healthy relationship or marriage forms when two people each with a past, choose to join together to form a future that is greater than the sum of its two parts. Part of my discovery process regarding relationships is that it is not necessary to get inside my partner's head as if her brain was and extension of my own, it is in the ongoing discovery of viewpoints, our thoughts, our mutual interest in learning what we can do each day to make his/her day better--then doing it.

> I love this woman with my entire everything and I know she loves me, but I can't get over the past things she's done to me, and she's a totally different woman to the day I met her...

Perhaps a more practical question is to learn whether you two "love" each other, or, are "in love" with each other. There is a distinct difference. The former is more intense than a friendship; the second has "sparks" and pheromones flying between you for starters.

Communication and feedback are two key ingredients in a relationship. I suggest that the two of you have some discussions and learn what you can from each other, beginning with the question of "love" and "in love". Next, the two of you should read the the articles and information, here.

If it is decided that the two of you in fact are in love and do not simply have a mutual admiration and needy reason to interact, then I recommend visiting a couples counselor. Your four year relationship has gone along much too long to continue without any solid problem solving.

> What do I do????

You are the first man who has come forward stating that "I thought I could fix her/things by doing 'X'". This is usually a woman's thought process that ends up not working.

* First, have that talk
* Second, work out an action plan that the two of you
can embrace and with which the two of you can move forward
* Third, learn relationship skills for working together in partnership
* Fourth, each of you needs to wake up every morning and ask
"what can I do to make his/her life better", then set about doing so
* Fifth, if you decide that the relationship is not going to succeed,
regardless of your feelings for each other, then end it as graciously
as possible and move on. Understand the whys and wherefores
of dating and then get busy

There is no good logical reason for hanging on for one year let alone four when your life is so miserable. You definitely need pragmatism in your life. This is behaving like the devil you know is better than the devil you do not know {meaning a potential person to date), so you hang in there, rather than making positive changes. Why do people date? See, above.

I hope this is of help. Got questions?

-doc

What's that card game? BS?

Sorry buddy but I'm having trouble believing this email she sent. Call me weird but honestly, I got 2 things out of the whole letter. First and foremost she is trying to make an "excuse" for her actions by saying she is "scared" and doesn't know what to do while and the same time she is pushing it off on you. YOU have the resentment to her. You have this "hate". YOU YOU YOU while she is "scared" and helpless and "innocent". She doesn't know what to do? Yet doesn't want to talk about some weekend. She needs to talk about it. She is afraid of you not being happy with her and its to the point that she doesn't know what she needs to do.

I'm going to stick by my earlier approach and say to end it.

But again this is assuming that you truly are the "wronged" party and are really doing everything right.

If you actually aren't doing everything in your power to make it work and are just trying to sell everyone here a "sob" story to make us feel bad for you, (which believe me its been done) then perhaps YOU need to change and talk with her like an adult (I.e. no interrupting which she stated as a reason for the email)

Brenden, there's only one phrase you've said, from the beginning, that's important here. Two words, say everything. And you said them in your very first post.

[QUOTE]toxic relationship[/QUOTE]

End the relationship. End the toxicity. You each owe it to yourselves, and you each owe it to the other.

Hi, Brenden,

> > I've been in a toxic relationship for 4yrs,

A simple question comes to mind--WHY?

> Sorry for spreading my personal life all over here. For what its worth its helped me vent over this and gain some insight.

There is nothing to be sorry about.

> I think my mind is made up. I just need to grow a pair!

Your primary emphasis should not be so much about whether to end the relationship or not, rather, to move on and to find a woman more compatible. Look out for A#1--you, and find a more suitable match.

Over the years I have dated several women, although not a lot. I've also been married, twice. All of my relationships whether successful or not were easy. Yes, they did require work, forethought and planning, and effort, yet for the most part the time and effort to make each work did not cause a lot of stress, angst, or anguish; nor were they physically or mentally draining. Of course, all ended up failing for one reason or another, which is what brought me to the woman who is in my life, now. Of course we have disagreements, differences of opinion, yet we also have respect and the desire to do what we can to please each other, understanding that we must give in order to receive. We each place the other at the top of the list, yet by doing so, we share the proverbial pedestal, so to speak. There is give and take, yet in the end, we both end up happy knowing that we worked to make each other happy. It's the little things that count, and whatever I can do to make her life easier, I try to do. The effort pays off big time.

Both of us give in order to receive and this approach is much different than using our partner to get what we want. (This is the answer to her not knowing what to do to please you.) Think of the former method as an investment; the latter is stealing.

Here is a partial quote from my earlier reply: "Dating does not begin and end with the first warm body who expresses an interest in us.... (the process should be about) learning more about people, their character, likes, dislikes, quirks, morals, values, goals, etc., in order to learn what you want in a prospective mate, and to better recognize when Mr. (Ms) Right does come along."

Dating has a high failure rate. This is not bad and is to be expected. When we date we look for people who are compatible with us and who compliment us while at the same time, learning more about what we want and value in others. So, people will come and people will go, and we should be all the better for it. Eventually, someone will enter our life and after several dates we will know that s/he is thee one for us. Looking at the way people tend to date nowadays, settling for the first warm body who expresses an initial interest in us, and you understand how we set ourselves up for eventual failure, much of the time.

> My world fell apart the last time I lost her. I'm just not ready to lose her yet.

Although your relationship is four years old, the level of development is much less. This is not about loss, this should be about exploration and discovery. Understand that with every person you date, except for one, the experiences will end. Take a positive view of the process, whether the date(s) end after the first dinner date, a few weeks later, or, a few months later. It is not very likely that you will find Ms. Right if you do not bring a positive approach to the process while eagerly and enthusiastically discovering and learning what you can about potential mates.

I have dated a great many men but have only married the one man and I remain married to him after 36 years and cannot even conceive of being married to anyone else so well are we suited to eachother. We have no doubts.

Remember what I have said many times before: INFATUATION is surrounded by insecurities, doubts, 'he/she loves me, he/she loves me not', will we be happy together - all of those questions.

LOVE has no doubts, no fears, no insecurities - LOVE just IS.

If you have to ask if this is love the answer is NO.

> I think we are both still with each other cause the sex is so flippen good. No foreplay, she doesn't enjoy oral and hardly gives it to me. I don't think she enjoys foreplay.

Thank you for the answer as to "why". Are you serious?

If you consider this flippen good sex, I would definitely like to know how you define bad sex!

After four years you do not know whether or not she enjoys foreplay? Please do not be offended by this observation, however, you have a ways to go to become a world class lover. Your fiancee has much to learn about her body, physiology, and, emotions, whether she comes to enjoy every activity or not, she needs knowledge.

How are you defining "foreplay"? The term defines oral and/or manual stimulation, only. Unfortunately, many people incorrectly use the term
to mean all aspects of fooling around and making out. This is not correct because there are these following stages:

* Necking-- kissing and caressing above the shoulders
* Petting -- kissing and caressing the entire body except
for the breasts and genitals {erogenous zones), clothes on
* Heavy Petting-- All of the above including partial then later
total disrobing and now including the breasts and genitals
+ building arousal by mixing up all of the above as excitement
and anticipation increase
* Foreplay-- kissing, caressing breasts, nipples, areolas, and
all of the "pieces-parts", of a person's genitals
* Intercourse-- Etiquette dictates we help our partner achieve
the first orgasm, the last if it is her wish, and then in between
the two, as many as the two of us would like.

> Always wham bam thank you sir.

This is the definition of a "Quickie", certainly not intense love making.

If you want to experience the most intense physical and emotional feelings and sensations, then the two of you have to devote no less than half an hour, longer, time permitting and within reason, building each other's arousal, excitement, tension, and, anticipation. Brenden, are you aware that women are "wired" differently than men? We are able to be UP and ready in a matter of moments, not so the gentler gender. Women require this time and attention in order to become fully turned on, aroused, and, ready. If you are rushing to the finish, you are missing out on quite a lot.

I recommend that the two of you read each of the articles listed in the Index, together or separately, then discuss what you have learned and add it to what you already know. Making love can be very much more than just having orgasms. Orgasms can be so very much more when the two of you learn how and take an interest in pleasuring each other within the context of all this being the outward expression of the love you share.

> so what now... We share a house together and the stuff in it. Do I stay and search for miss right or get out, go through the process of grieving and then look around for miss right?

* Whose name is on the lease, or, who has title?
* Who can move out more easily?
* If you acquired your furnishings together, then
decide between you how to divide the items and
who needs what, more. You can decide how to
reimburse the other, or not.

I'm not going comment further right now.

For your information:
I think we are ready to live together!!

> But what I crave the most is companionship, on my level. As you say, give and take, in every aspect. Not just the bedroom!

Have you read my definition for how a relationship forms? It forms when two people each with a past decide to join together in order to have a future that is more than the sum of its two parts.

Question: Do the two of you do couples counseling or do you date?

What two articles? I'm not certain what you are referring to.

Hi,

Here is a partial quote from my first reply to you a couple of days ago:

Please begin by familiarizing yourself with the...Index, ... found at the top of the main screen. The Index contains links to helpful informative insightful, as well as how-to articles that discuss the most common questions and concerns people ask about. In addition, if you click on the site's Home Page, you will find even more information.

I recommend that the two of you read each of the articles, together or separately, discuss what you have learned, and add the information to what each of you already knows. Knowledge is empowering. There is enough information there to help make you a world class lover with some practice and determination. Your girlfriend does not yet know what she does not know so for her to read each of the articles, will help widen her horizons.

--BEGIN HERE--w/a Partial INDEX of Sex Info 101 Sex Ed. Topics

-doc

We're no further along than a week ago.

I'm done.

I'm going to say it since none of the senior members will.

Brenden you are an idiot. You have not listened to a single thing we have said. Doc has already answered your question. This is basically what the conversation is now

You: what do I do
Doc: this
You: well what is it can I do
Us: tell you again
You: well can I do something
Us: tell you a third time

Do you not understand how to read? There is no changing. Get the hell out of the relationship and stop thinking that asking the same question 900 times will yield a different result. You want the advice you wanna hear? Fine

Dear brenden,

It sounds like a typical case of "fear". Your fiance loves you very much and is just afraid that you will hurt her. Here's what you do.

1. Give her everything she asks for. No questions asked
2. Ignore any self destructive and relationship destructive behavior. Pass it off as she is "testing" your love
3. Be miserable. The best love stories are the one where the main character is dying from his unrequitted love and in the end his object of love comes to him and they live happily ever after
4. When you guys finally divorce because she has spent all your money, ruined you financially, and mentally, and you catch her cheating on you, avoid any sharp or dangerous objects or you will wind up in jail
5. But since you ignored our original advice you will obviously ignore step 4 so continue to step 6
6. Start working out and join a gang when your in prison so you will have a group to protect your anus.

Is that what you want? Since we have given you the same answer everytime you asked and you seem to truly believe the same question will lead to a different answer if asked enough.

So there is your new answer. Either take it, or pull your head out and try REALLY reading this thread. We don't care about your "email conversations". You need to dump her. Your first mistake was thinking a proposal will fix a bad relationship. If that was the case kennedy should have proposed to castro. Perhaps it woulda have saved our relations with cuba?

The more you go on the more I see your immaturity of this relationship and the less "love" you have.

Trust us, as hard as it is to accept, you'll be better for it in the long run.

Do yourself a favor, learn from this experience with her, and use that information to hopefully avoid the same in the future.

*Sigh* with so many mice, I'll have to go on a diet.

At the risk of being eaten....

*squeak*!

No one said it was going to be EASY, dammit!
But are you a MAN or are you a MOUSE?

Brenden, I've found a couple truths for my self that I'd like to share:

1) I attract unto me that which I need, not necessarily what I want. It seems to me that there is something inside you that needs this painful relationship. Until you change that about yourself, I'd imagine you'd end up where you are now again. Whether it would be with this girl or another one, it seems to me that this is something you "need". How many times have you heard "My current is just like my Ex?". If you follow the same road map, you end up in the same place. I'd highly suggest seeking out a good counselor. To me a good counselor would be someone you can relate to and can ask you the questions you can't seem to see to ask yourself. If they give you answers then those answers are counselor's answer, not yours. I've found that the answers that I come up with work best for me. But I didn't know what the questions I needed answer were. That is where a couple of great counselors have helped me.

2) The only person I can change is me. There have been times in my life were I so wished others in my life were different. Especially when that person was my wife. It was like beating my head against the wall. Pleading with them, bribing, or whatever I could think of wouldn't change who they were. But centering in on me and making positive changes to who I am, seemed to be the only thing that helped. Of course the healthier I became, the crazier my partner got. So she had to work on herself or go in another direction.

I was where you are now, once upon a time in my life. It really sucks. But if you are tired of being in this place and don't want to come back to this place, I think the best thing to do is to make yourself a better person. Then, if what you really need is a great relationship, then you'll attach a great partner. It happened to me. Good luck with your journey. Please keep us informed.