[oberon]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]First of all, I maintain that your quote above reveals your OWN prejudice -- in your case, against anyone who disapproves of gays (presumably heterosexual males). Apparently anyone who disapproves of your point of view is therefore prejudiced, bigoted, or afraid. *Isn't this the very definition of intolerance?

Actually, no, the very definition of intolerance is:

Webster's New Dictionary of the English Language: intolerant (intolerance)- 1. unable or unwilling to endure *2. *unwilling to grant equality, freedom, or other social rights

While I possibly admit to the same prejudice I described for you (opinion made without adequate basis), I am quite willing to allow anyone any beliefs, freedoms, or rights as long as they do not infringe upon mine. *Therefore, prejudiced maybe, but hardly intolerant. *And I would hardly assign the role of those "who disapprove of gays" solely to heterosexual males ( Anita Bryant springs to mind) but usually they are the most visible and vocal.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]Secondly, you infer that I have an opinion that has been formed without an adequate basis? *What, exactly, would an adequate basis consist of for the sake of this argument? *Would I, myself, have to be gay?

I would settle for proof positive that being gay was in some way harmful to someone/anyone- including the gay person him/herself. *After all, the title of this topic is "Gay: Why is it bad?". *So on some level, you must disapprove of that "badness". *Here we go:

Webster's (again) *bad- 1. below standard: poor also unfavorable *2. spoiled: decayed 3. wicked also not well-behaved: naughty 4. disagreeable also harmful 5. defective, faulty: not valid 6. unwell, ill 7. sorry, regretful syn evil, wrong, immoral, iniquitous

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]But I thought I addressed this in my first post: if you're going to discuss whether something is "right" or "wrong" you're going to have to bring a moral code into the picture, and every person is entitled to subscribe to their own set of values.

I personally don't see where being gay or homosexual fits into any of the above definitions at all. *If you can, then feel free to elaborate. *I really insist that this not turn into a religious debate, so I will skirt around this the best that I can...lol. *My "moral code" is probably very similar to your's. *Most major religions have things that they believe to be wrong or "sins". *The Bible is pretty clear on these. *Murder, lying, stealing. *All of these take something from someone. Life (murder), truth (lying), livelyhood (stealing). *And, in my opinion, all are self-punishing. Murderers- any criminal expert will tell you that those who kill in cold blood lose something of themselves- a part of them dies. *Liars lose their credibility ( and any close friends). *Thieves loses their conscience (and any trust not only of others if-when- they are found out but of their own of other people). *I fail to see how being gay fits into these ideas of what is wrong or harmful.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]But I do know that gay sex is a choice, just as straight sex is. *Just because I'm predisposed towards a certain way of being doesn't always mean I MUST act on that influence. *

Yes, but unless you can show me that it is harmful, I don't see why I should stop. *And don't bother to trot out the "gay lifestyle" ( I detest that expression) as an example. *You know: promiscuity, drugs, emotional problems. I would like to see heterosexuals bear up as well under the societal pressures that homosexuals have dealt with. *Unable to be who you really are (fear of the loss of family, friends, job, home, LIFE), unable to marry ( no way to stabilize a relationship), no guidance or role models, and certainly no approval.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]The guy who I sat with got HIV/AIDS from sexual activities he engaged in. *He knew this as much as anyone. *I didn't look down on him for it, or blame him, or try to make him feel guilty about it, or feel like "he got what he deserved." *I just tried to be a friend in his last weeks... went and read books to him, sat and held his hand (not the most comfortable thing for a straight guy to do), fed him. *I don't think he felt anything but love and compassion from me, 'cause that's how I felt.

My brother doesn't even know I know he is gay (a friend told me), and has probably never sensed any change in how I've treated him or how we get along as brothers. *We emailed back and forth 3 or 4 times just today.

I just know that had I been the friend- although I would NEVER have said anything, especially to someone who was kind enough to stay with me through a terrible illness- it would always be there in the back of my mind. *Wondering if you thought this was because I was gay.

My mother and I are very close. *She (for pretty much the same reasons you do) disapproves of being gay. *I feel that we miss out on a lot since there is a important part of my life that we just don't talk about. *Which leads me to ask, do you wonder why your brother has never told you he's gay?

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]And I think you might be pleasantly surprised what the Bible really teaches on that subject.

And what make you so sure that I don't?? *It might surprise you to know that I grew up in a VERY conservative, Christian home with parents who did a fairly good job making sure I didn't even know gay people existed. *It might also surprise you to know that I still consider myself a Christian. *Most denominations might not agree, but that's their problem- not mine.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]I've had many friends who are gay and most seem surprised that I'm not what they expect of a typical straight guy. *In fact, a few have been surprised that I've been a little more up-to-speed than they are about musical theatre, art-house film, and trends in modern cuisine... maybe heterosexuals don't have a monopoly on prejudice and stereotyping after all, huh?

Ah, so you're a metrosexual, huh? lol

And no, unfortunately we are all prone to prejudice and stereotyping. I have a very good black friend who snorts every time I quote someone black who says blacks can't be racists. *I'm afraid gays can be just as heterophobic. *We all have to work on that.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (TexasGuy @ May 05 2004,22:57)]Oh, and as far as species that do it for pleasure, I think it's safe to say that the porcupine does NOT belong on that list!

And the hedgehog... definitely the hedgehog. *There is a great book by Terry Prachett with a song in it called "The Hedgehog Never Gets Buggered At All"...lol