I took some advice from the other thread. It worked, reasonably well and I met this lady, though I already knew her rather well, I just never confronted her with dating or anything. Really quickly, we had a number of dates and she's really attractive and I just not sure what to do with this. I mean it's not a relationship in the sense of it being exclusive or anything like that, but I sense that we should be more physically intimate than we are.
I've never been very good with that transition between the girl you take out on dates, to the girl you take home from a date. As such I've sort of not, taken her home (my home, obviously I take her to her home and drop her off, the alternative would be some twisted form of public kidnapping). Furthermore, even if I were to enter into a situation that would lead to a continued post-date scenario, I'm not entirely sure of the transition that goes between the 'excuse for coming in' to 'the real reason you're here'. IE how do people go from the 'extra glass of wine/cup of coffee/let me show you the pictures of my trip to Florida' to making out and sex. I mean we've kissed but I'm very careful about not over-running my leash when it comes to these sorts of things. So I probably don't engage things as aggressively as I should.
Have you been watching her body language?
Does she 'mirror' you by taking up the same posture that you do?
Has she stroked her lgass up and down?
Has she played with her hair?
Does she touch you when she talks to you?
These are POSITIVE signals.
What you do is to put an arm around her while walking to your car, once you reach the car you wrap your big strong arms around her, murmur something nice and kiss her, holding it for at least 20 seconds, then you ease her into the car and take her home to your place. You help her out of the car and do the kiss thing again before taking her in with you and if you need help from there - well - Shame on you.
[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;278452]Have you been watching her body language?
Does she 'mirror' you by taking up the same posture that you do?
Has she stroked her lgass up and down?
Has she played with her hair?
Does she touch you when she talks to you?
These are POSITIVE signals.
What you do is to put an arm around her while walking to your car, once you reach the car you wrap your big strong arms around her, murmur something nice and kiss her, holding it for at least 20 seconds, then you ease her into the car and take her home to your place.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, she's been sending signals and she does touch me when she speaks to me, especially at the bar or restaurant. And she's asked me to come in to her place, after a date, but I politely declined (I had valid reasons...).
[QUOTE] You help her out of the car and do the kiss thing again before taking her in with you and if you need help from there - well - Shame on you.[/QUOTE]
I guess shame on me. I've never been, that great in going from making out to, well, actual sex. I freeze up I guess, because I'm always afraid I'll overreach and she'll be angry and I don't want things to be awkward when they've been going reasonably well.
You freeze up fearing to offend and the poor lady's wondering what's wrong with her that you're not taking her up on her offer!!!
Idiot!
[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;278478]You freeze up fearing to offend and the poor lady's wondering what's wrong with her that you're not taking her up on her offer!!!
Idiot![/QUOTE]
Nothing's wrong with her. I was very careful to express that nothing was wrong with her.
I have a problem transitioning in my head from making out to more. I have a problem navigating that threshold of arousal. I guess don't think she wants it as much as I do, so I hold back.
You have been given all the signals needed from this girl. She clearly wants this relationship to become sexual. You just need to be the man that she wants. Honestly man just keep kissing her and move down to her neck. Then take your shirt off. If she hasn't stopped you at that point, then you have the green light.
Here is an article for you to read, taken right from the list in the Index:
Making Out--Knowing How Far To Go
[QUOTE=dancingdoc2;278493]Here is an article for you to read, taken right from the list in the Index:
Making Out--Knowing How Far To Go [/QUOTE]
That article was helpful, and I will likely refer to it in the future. It's just not the issue at hand. Precisely. I am assuming that the answer is that there is no answer and that the awkwardness is inherent to the situation.
I mean because the issue isn't with the signals I'm getting, or at least I don't think they are, as many have noted she's not being unclear. I think it's me. I'm not quite getting that catch to switch over from just making out, which is fun, to more intense things. I feel terribly comfortable kissing her and the external caressing but I don't think I'm prepared for the fallout of the more intense intimacy. I just don't know how to say that without hurting her feelings horribly.
It really isn't her, it's I'm not sure if I'm ready for the intense emotional connection that'll come with the intercourse activity. And I realize that it must be frustrating for her for me to be so frigid, would that be the right word?
I'm just not sure if I should be committing to this relationship if we go forward with this, and if I'm not fully committed to this relationship (if you can call it that) does that make me kinda skeezy if I do have sex with her? And my personality would make me hyper-attached to her if we engaged in this kind of intimacy and I don't want to be that attached to someone especially if it is based on sex and not a lot more. I mean I've already starting seeing faults that would result in some incompatibilities between myself and her and I don't want to have sex because she's willing to give it to me and then find out later that I really was just using her to have sex.
And I also feel like I'm over thinking this, but I also think it's very important for me to actually think about this because, it's important.
I just feel conflicted about my motivations when it comes to this lady. I don't want to just have this about engaging in sex with her, I want it to be I'm even sure because I'm trying not to be attached to the first warm body that'll accept me.
I feel just plain conflicted.
Yeah, overthinking. If anything, just remember that sex is a body function. Like eating, or sleeping. Would you be having all this fretting about going to dinner? Like would she call you a glutton if you just rang her up to go out to eat?
So long as you don't only pay any attention to her for only sex. I mean, go out and have fun, and if you have sex you have it and enjoy it. You don't have to make it any more of an intense emotional thing than it deserves. The emotional thing is for the relationship side. Not the physical side.
Why is it only you that could be using her for sex? She may want to do the same with you. And maybe she see things that wouldn't work for her in a long term relationship. It doesn't mean she doesn't find you attractive and wants to have sex. Why don't you talk to her about it. If you both have an understanding that this will only be physical and fun then they're is no break in your moral code. But if you are clingy as you describe then maybe you should just move on.
> That article was helpful, and I will likely refer to it in the future. It's just not the issue at hand.
EEK and I have written lots of articles that discuss dating and relationship dynamics. I'm surprised that you know about the Index, yet apparently have not been reading the articles. You need to learn about "Implied Consent" for one thing. Second: boundaries. Knowledge is empowering.
> I'm not sure if I'm ready for the intense emotional connection that'll come with the intercourse activity. And I realize that it must be frustrating for her for me to be so frigid, would that be the right word?
"Frigid"? Na, more like stuck and not knowing if or how to proceed when.
Act on the "intense emotional connection..." after you have established a strong connection between you. If you just want sex for sex sake, that is OK also, although, work up to intercourse by first devoting a lot of time (minutes and nights) just fooling around and making out, first. Get to know each other with clothes on before getting to know each other in various stages of undress, then you can think about Foreplay and/or intercourse.
Decide what type and depth of a relationship you would like with her, then begin using Implied Consent to build this relationship. Relationships are partnerships, if she wants what you want she will respond and if not--or she wants to progress more slowly or more rapidly, she will indicate this to you, often by how she reacts. "Silence can be golden", just communicate with each other, verbally or non-verbally. Now, do some reading.
You do not have to worry about or be concerned about what she may think about you making a move. You'll know soon enough and if you are kind caring and gentle any negative response will not be harsh or harmful. Not to make a move and testing boundaries is being indecisive and a wimp. This will be more harmful to the progress of your relationship than being stopped at some point after trying something.
Begin by building and establishing intimacy. This will lead to more and more as explained in the articles if the relationship is healthy. Just don't rush; rather, build at a pace that is comfortable for each of you.
You are going to lose her if you continue to shy away. If she walks away, you will feel disgusted with yourself. This will set up in your mind a stronger barrier to ever 'going there' with every subsequent woman. Your 'over-thinking' this will cripple you - if you permit it.
This is why I never have anything to do with shy men. They make what should be FUN into WORK.
[QUOTE=dancingdoc2;278512]> That article was helpful, and I will likely refer to it in the future. It's just not the issue at hand.
EEK and I have written lots of articles that discuss dating and relationship dynamics. I'm surprised that you know about the Index, yet apparently have not been reading the articles. You need to learn about "Implied Consent" for one thing. Second: boundaries. Knowledge is empowering.
[/QUOTE]
I never imply anything when it comes relationships. My implications are really usually wrong.
The sex brings emotional connection, the last time I was in a relationship that went on this trajectory I got attached, and ended up being far more invested in the relationship than she was.
I've had a hard time splitting the two apart.
[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;278515]You are going to lose her if you continue to shy away. If she walks away, you will feel disgusted with yourself. This will set up in your mind a stronger barrier to ever 'going there' with every subsequent woman. Your 'over-thinking' this will cripple you - if you permit it.
This is why I never have anything to do with shy men. They make what should be FUN into WORK.[/QUOTE]
It's never really fun though is it?
I always feel that it's just really harrowing and ends in disappointment, not just for her but for me about myself. And it's terrifying, because it's been a long time and I know this is going to be horrible.
If you already know it's going to be horrible, then guess what? You have doomed it to BE horrible! It actually CAN be FUN!!! Not every relationship ends in disappointment. In fact, counting back to high school, I've had maybe 7 or 8 'romantic' relationships, half of them going only "so far", and half continuing to become sexual. I am currently Facebook friends with every single one of these women, except for my late wife of 33 years--she died before FB caught on. So, I married two and have experienced wonderful relationships. Those women I had sex with but did not marry went on to become close friends of mine. Yes, sex does imply some sort of emotional connection, some degree of trust, understanding, friendship, etc. But commitment? I do not believe that is implied until one or the other brings it up. With my first wife, we were talking about marriage and naming the children within six weeks of first sleeping together. Other women wanted that, but I was not ready, or knew it was not ever going to happen. In such a case, either they said, "Thanks for the fun then, but no thanks," or, "Oh, okay, so let's just keep it light and see what happens." I had a "Friend with Benefits" in between my two marriages--we shared a lot, got emotionally connected, but never made any sort of commitment. It can work out, you just have to dive in and see what happens. Yeah, maybe one of you might get hurt. But you never know until you take the plunge!
Michael
If you're afraid of getting hurt then:
you would never have learned to walk.
you would never have learned to ride a bicycle.
you would never play any sports.
you would never drive any vehicle.
you would never use any tools.
you would never cook.
you would never be out in nature.
you would never swim.
you would never go without underpants when wearing blue jeans - zip ouch!
you would never walk down steps.
you would never move furniture.
you would never have sharp edges anywhere in your house.
you would never bathe or use hot water anywhere.
Shall I go on?
You face injury every day of your life and make nothing of it, yet you balk at enjoying sex with a willing woman?!?!?!
Does that even make sense to you?
[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;278544]If you're afraid of getting hurt then:
you would never have learned to walk.
you would never have learned to ride a bicycle.
you would never play any sports.
you would never drive any vehicle.
you would never use any tools.
you would never cook.
you would never be out in nature.
you would never swim.
you would never go without underpants when wearing blue jeans - zip ouch!
you would never walk down steps.
you would never move furniture.
you would never have sharp edges anywhere in your house.
you would never bathe or use hot water anywhere.
Shall I go on?
You face injury every day of your life and make nothing of it, yet you balk at enjoying sex with a willing woman?!?!?!
Does that even make sense to you?[/QUOTE]
Actually I never wear jeans, and I do wear underpants when I wear zipped pants. I never learned to swim, don't really play sports, and I get eye-twitchy when it comes to sharp edges.
There is a distinct difference between superficial physical injury and well this.
With those examples, the injury is to me. With this, it's not just the injury of the rejection, but the fact that I'm disappointing to someone else and I'm very aware how disappointing I am when it comes to this stuff. So when it comes to performing, I feel like I'm just struggling to save face every time, rather than feel like I actually deserve to enjoy it.
I believe you miss the woman's point.
Moreover:
* Relationships are partnerships
* formed by two people each with a past who opt to come together in order to enjoy a future greater than the sum of its two parts
* Even if a relationship is not what you are looking for--
+ relationships require communication {verbal &/or non verbal). Talk to each other and establish the ground rules for your relationship after telling her what you want and learning what she wants. (Mind readers we are not)
We did finally engage in the activities....and I don't know. I don't think it went very well. She didn't seem all that excited about it. I asked if there was something wrong but she said 'no' though the way she said it wasn't particularly convincing. It was at her house so I wasn't sure how to proceed. She asked if I wanted to stay and I said yes, if she wanted me to, but she didn't say anything and so I wasn't sure and so I got dressed and said goodnight and gave her a kiss and left, because I thought it would be intrusive of me to stay if she didn't want me there.
That was a week and a half ago, and well, I left a message for a new date and stuff but haven't really heard any confirmation just a 'I'm not sure' thing. I was concerned this would happen.
Your indecisiveness and timidity have led to this as we cautioned you they would. Women interpret them as "he's really not interested". So, yes she's 'not sure' if she wants to continue with you - I mean why would she if you're "not interested"?
Dammit, show her a little ENTHUSIASM!
[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;278904]Your indecisiveness and timidity have led to this as we cautioned you they would. Women interpret them as "he's really not interested". So, yes she's 'not sure' if she wants to continue with you - I mean why would she if you're "not interested"?
Dammit, show her a little ENTHUSIASM![/QUOTE]
I was interested but it felt that as the night progressed I just couldn't perform adequately. The more I tried to do better the more I screwed up.
At the end of it, she sort of just suggested I stop before I hurt myself.
I don't know if I could go through with that again. It was one of the most unpleasant experiences I've had, and I can't imagine her experience was any better. I'm just frustrated. I really liked her and this was my shot to show it and as usual it blew up in my face.
Have you read the sticky post entitled The Program? How about the one entitled Body Worship?
Or did you think sex was all about your penis?
[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;278925]Have you read the sticky post entitled The Program? How about the one entitled Body Worship?
Or did you think sex was all about your penis?[/QUOTE]
Yes, and yes...and I still got disoriented. She wanted things to go, faster and I'm I guess too methodical. And no I didn't start out with the penis, I'm not that naive though just barely evidently. And admittedly she wasn't very helpful and kept trying to push me farther down the line than I was at in my mental state. Though to be fair to her, when it comes to this sort of thing I tend to stick to the plan and when things get spontaneous I get lost and frustrated. And like I said, the more I tried to stick to the plan the more she got impatient.
I'm just not very good at this sort of thing. I never claimed to be very good though, so at least I wasn't overly bravado about it in the first place.
The Program does permit changes to suit circumstances. In such cases as you describe, you follow the lady's desires. If she wants you to "skip a bit" you "skip a bit". Perhaps after her first orgasm she'd slow down and let you catch up. But there's no need to get all flustered about it.
[QUOTE=EvilEvilKitten;278935]The Program does permit changes to suit circumstances. In such cases as you describe, you follow the lady's desires. If she wants you to "skip a bit" you "skip a bit". Perhaps after her first orgasm she'd slow down and let you catch up. But there's no need to get all flustered about it.[/QUOTE]
I'm not entirely used to being in that kind of situation, to be honest. It's been a while since I've been with someone else, and quite frankly I wasn't all that great the last time I was with a woman. So I have to admit to being kinda uncomfortable.
I just wanted to make it worth the effort for her. And well, I feel I failed pretty astonishingly.
ME, this "woe is me" nonsense has got to stop. EEK and several other posters here have given you the tools to succeed. Instead of feeling sorry for yourself, take a step back and make sure the same thing doesn't happen with the next girl.
[QUOTE=g-dubz;278939]ME, this "woe is me" nonsense has got to stop. EEK and several other posters here have given you the tools to succeed. Instead of feeling sorry for yourself, take a step back and make sure the same thing doesn't happen with the next girl.[/QUOTE]
Next girl? That makes assumptions. IE It isn't impossible that I may get another chance. She did call and acceded to another date. So I'm just gonna ignore that anything happened.
I'm just gonna leave the decision up to her (as if it was ever mine to begin with). If she wants to try again I'll follow her lead and try and make things work for her.
^ I'm not making assumptions. I just want you to be quiet and stop beating yourself up and learn from your mistake if your relationship with this girl doesn't workout.
[QUOTE=g-dubz;278941]^ I'm not making assumptions. I just want you to be quiet and stop beating yourself up and learn from your mistake if your relationship with this girl doesn't workout.[/QUOTE]
Why shouldn't I be beating myself up? Every mistake that's been made in this relationship has been mine.
^ :rolleyes: Fine. Stay alone in emo-mode then :/
[QUOTE=g-dubz;278958]^ :rolleyes: Fine. Stay alone in emo-mode then :/[/QUOTE]
It isn't about being emo. It's about accepting the blame for something that was my fault. That experience was entirely my fault. So this next time, I'm following her lead since she's probably got a hell of a lot more experience about this sort of thing than I do.
You like to make assumptions about people don't you?
^ Yeah I do like making assumptions about people especially those who continue to make posts about themselves crying over some mistake that they've already learned from. If you've already accepted it's your fault then why are still posting about then?? You've learned your lesson so stop CRYING about it and move on already.
[QUOTE=g-dubz;278963]^ Yeah I do like making assumptions about people especially those who continue to make posts about themselves crying over some mistake that they've already learned from. If you've already accepted it's your fault then why are still posting about then?? You've learned your lesson so stop CRYING about it and move on already.[/QUOTE]
It was hardly crying, it as stating. There is a difference. As to why, maybe I want to be certain that my decision was the best of the options available. It could be possible that I want to hear the opinions of more experienced persons on what I've done or did, and maybe I don't want textbook responses of the stickied notes but an in context response. Either way, this weekend should be, an experience one way or the other.
As I see it, this forum is specifically for asking questions and informing the uninformed and getting responses to in the moment events. I have been reading, I have been progressing, and I am looking for further information about this particular situation to see its continuation is smoothe. I don't see why you find the need to bitch about it, except maybe to make yourself feel superior, which a pathetic reason.
The real question is, if you don't like reading it, why do you keep reading the thread? I mean no one is strong arming you to?
^ But that's the thing ME. You AREN'T asking any more questions. Most of the posters here have given you all the advice they could muster and yet you keep coming back here beating yourself up about how bad you screwed up with this girl which is why I keep reading.
You've already reached the conclusion ME, which is to not make the same mistake again either with the girl you're seeing and/or with the next girl in line.
[QUOTE=g-dubz;278971]^ But that's the thing ME. You AREN'T asking any more questions. Most of the posters here have given you all the advice they could muster and yet you keep coming back here beating yourself up about how bad you screwed up with this girl which is why I keep reading.
You've already reached the conclusion ME, which is to not make the same mistake again either with the girl you're seeing and/or with the next girl in line.[/QUOTE]
Oh, come now. There are numerous social questions to be answered. For instance is it a good idea to just ignore the past incident, or should I bring it up, or apologize...or I don't know.
I haven't dated anyone for so long, in fact the last time I dated anyone was when I was 18...I just don't have the social tools. The last time I had sex with a woman there was so much emotional attachment that it was overpowering and ultimately smothering for the relationship. I'm still slightly concerned about facing that again, how do people cut the mental leash between those psycho-social attachments and simply doing the deed.
That's why I have some problems with some of the people's advice, it assumes a detachment that I find...baffling.
Where's EEK when you need her? I need your brick!!